Streets ahead? What I’ve learned from my year with an electric car

The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
I'm probably going to get a EV later in the year, and replace my current petrol car. I know very little about them at the moment, but interested in the comment about the infrastructure being better for a Tesla - why is that, and what do you mean ?

I think Tesla's are ugly (no offence to those who own them), so not really considering them at the moment, but interested if they're more attractive because some of the other benefits and whether I should add them to my list.
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Tesla created a Supercharger network which is only available to Teslas. If you've been to a service station you've probably seen a row of 10+ chargers with the Tesla branding. It means Teslas can use the Tesla network and all other chargers where all other cars can only use the others. Biggest benefit is location as they are usually at motorway service stations so you don't have to go off route to find them and they typically have 10+ at each location so chances of getting there to find the only charger busy or broken is reduced.

Scroll down on the below to the Rapid Chargers section. They have 15% of the rapid chargers in the UK but as above, it is better than that in reality because of the locations. I won't ever use the rapid charger at my local mcdonalds for example, nor will anyone on a long distance drive because it's nowhere near a motorway. There is talk that they are going to open up the supercharger network to everyone though so hopefully that happens sooner rather than later.

www.zap-map.com

EV charging statistics 2024 - Zapmap

Tracking the growth in charging points across the UK
www.zap-map.com www.zap-map.com
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
I'm probably going to get a EV later in the year, and replace my current petrol car. I know very little about them at the moment, but interested in the comment about the infrastructure being better for a Tesla - why is that, and what do you mean ?

I think Tesla's are ugly (no offence to those who own them), so not really considering them at the moment, but interested if they're more attractive because some of the other benefits and whether I should add them to my list.
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No offence taken, in fact I agree with you. Much though I enjoy my car, it's certainly the least attractive car I've owned. From the front it looks tragic.

But, as @Nano says they have fast charging superchargers in so many places. The network is far better than any other charging network and significantly more reliable. Given the looks, which as you say are poor, and the build quality which is truly terrible the price point. The supercharger network is the only thing worth considering a Tesla for. The extra money you pay for a Tesla is specifically to pay for all this charging infrastructure they have built and it does make things so much easier, never having to worry about charger availability or reliability.
 
SmallTown said:
I would say that isn't true (the nobody caring bit). Lots of companies are looking to develop better batteries that use fewer rare earth metals.

What I always find crazy about "oh but think of the lithium mines" arguments is that they all ignore the fact it's much better than the processes for getting the fuel for ICE vehicles. It also ignores that manufacture of ICE vehicles also has an environmental impact.
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Recent study showed that you need to drive for 60k miles before an EV is "greener" than a petrol car. Much depends on how electricity is generated though.
 
I'm always a bit perplexed by some of the comments in these articles and discussions. Surely you do some research on charger availability, locations and speeds, and consider whether the option and cars available fits your lifestyle and needs. The willingness of some to totally dismiss the option (or indeed to make a purchase) without really considering the above i find perplexing. People dismissing those telling them they've had positive experiences is strange.
I'll be doing a bit more reasearch over the coming months as we probbly need to replace our smaller car. It's a bit more straight forward really for that as it could easily be used for home charging and local journeys only. The more detailed consideration will be around the family car.
 
the whole EV debate is pretty much moot considering only around 20% of our electricity in the Uk is from renewable energy sources.

So using your EV in London might improve the local air quality, but its only moving the pollution to the places unlucky enough to have a power station near by, you know, like the north, or Scotland or Wales.

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Steer said:
Recent study showed that you need to drive for 60k miles before an EV is "greener" than a petrol car. Much depends on how electricity is generated though.
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Yeah I think that's averaged globally. So taking into account the 100% fossil fuel energy countries like Poland and China.

If you get an EV in Norway or Costa Rica, that figure is significantly lower, I believe something like 11k miles.
 
Billy69_uk said:
the whole EV debate is pretty much moot considering only around 20% of our electricity in the Uk is from renewable energy sources.

So using your EV in London might improve the local air quality, but its only moving the pollution to the places unlucky enough to have a power station near by, you know, like the north, or Scotland or Wales.

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No, its not Moot at all. Even with only 40 clean energy (assuming you consider nuclear as "clean") EVs will quickly wind up better for the environment. It's an odd lie to take to try and argue that they aren't. I don't understand why defenders of ICE vehicles all of a sudden care about the environment in a way that they didn't before, when they didn't have to justify the amount of pollution that was coming out of their vehicles exhaust.
 
SmallTown said:
No, its not Moot at all. Even with only 40 clean energy (assuming you consider nuclear as "clean") EVs will quickly wind up better for the environment. It's an odd lie to take to try and argue that they aren't. I don't understand why defenders of ICE vehicles all of a sudden care about the environment in a way that they didn't before, when they didn't have to justify the amount of pollution that was coming out of their vehicles exhaust.
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Why do you get so prickly when someone offers an alternative view point to yours?

There are a lot of question marks regarding the use of wood pellets as fuel, as to why it is a good idea to be ripping up trees to burn at power stations.
 
SmallTown said:
No, its not Moot at all. Even with only 40 clean energy (assuming you consider nuclear as "clean") EVs will quickly wind up better for the environment. It's an odd lie to take to try and argue that they aren't. I don't understand why defenders of ICE vehicles all of a sudden care about the environment in a way that they didn't before, when they didn't have to justify the amount of pollution that was coming out of their vehicles exhaust.
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Where exactly is the lie? These figures are from the national grid.

I dont think anyone in their right mind would consider Nuclear as "Clean". It might not pollute at point of power generation, but it certainly does over its life cycle of mining, processing and decommissioning.

Vehicle electrification and Ev's are certainly an answer, but they are not the only answer to our issues around mobility and transportation, and to pretend that they are is the lie, or being extremely naive at best. Its so easy to jump on the Ev bandwagon, but there is a cost in the medium and long term, one that is still being worked out. (disposal, 2nd life use of batteries, battery chemistry, charging infrastructure etc etc etc)

Having worked with ICE for 25+ years and hybrids and EV's for 10+ years in truck, bus, rail, mining, marine, defence, power generation, I am well positioned to say that there is not one solution for all our needs, without fear of informed contradiction.

Personally, my money is on the long term adoption of fuel cells as the driver of vehicle/machine electrification, bearing in mind that fuel cell vehicles need batteries as well, just different types and sizing etc. There will also be a place for hydrogen ICE IMHO.

but that's only my idiotic opinion.
 
Brian Marwood said:
Why do you get so prickly when someone offers an alternative view point to yours?

There are a lot of question marks regarding the use of wood pellets as fuel, as to why it is a good idea to be ripping up trees to burn at power stations.
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It's not so much an alternative viewpoint. It's the fact it's an argument created just to argue against it if you see what I mean.

No one, not a single journalist, or car buyer, cared about the materials that went in to making an ICE vehicle, they didn't question the exotic metals used to save weight. They never questioned the amount of pollution these vehicles were spewing into the environment.

All of a sudden, when there is an alternative, which is better for the environment in general, these same people seem to be campaigners against Lithium mining. It's just incredibly frustrating when people went to hold on to old, inefficient, and polluting technology that they take such desperate lengths to try and bash the newer, cleaner technology.

They could try being honest: "I love the roar of a V8, I like the smells and vibrations and sense of power, so I'm not getting an EV" I could at least respect that, instead the develop an Environmental interest that they don't have, just to try and talk down the future of personal transport.

Before we had EVs, I can guarantee not one naysayer on this thread, ever said anything about Lithium mines or manufacture of batteries.
 
Billy69_uk said:
Where exactly is the lie? These figures are from the national grid.

I dont think anyone in their right mind would consider Nuclear as "Clean". It might not pollute at point of power generation, but it certainly does over its life cycle of mining, processing and decommissioning.

Vehicle electrification and Ev's are certainly an answer, but they are not the only answer to our issues around mobility and transportation, and to pretend that they are is the lie, or being extremely naive at best. Its so easy to jump on the Ev bandwagon, but there is a cost in the medium and long term, one that is still being worked out. (disposal, 2nd life use of batteries, battery chemistry, charging infrastructure etc etc etc)

Having worked with ICE for 25+ years and hybrids and EV's for 10+ years in truck, bus, rail, mining, marine, defence, power generation, I am well positioned to say that there is not one solution for all our needs, without fear of informed contradiction.

Personally, my money is on the long term adoption of fuel cells as the driver of vehicle/machine electrification, bearing in mind that fuel cell vehicles need batteries as well, just different types and sizing etc. There will also be a place for hydrogen ICE IMHO.

but that's only my idiotic opinion.
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Its a lie because, as already mentioned on this thread, even with 100% fossil fuel energy supplies, EVs become better for the environment eventually.

So, your thread showing that we currently produce a fifth of our energy from renewable sources doesn't prove what you think it does.
 
zzzzz said:
Wonder how EV owners will cope during the inevitable power cuts.
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Why inevitable? That's a problematic statement right there. You sound like another of the blind naysayers.
How did you cope during the fuel crisis? I coped fine, because my fuel came to me, in my home.
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
I'm probably going to get a EV later in the year, and replace my current petrol car. I know very little about them at the moment, but interested in the comment about the infrastructure being better for a Tesla - why is that, and what do you mean ?

I think Tesla's are ugly (no offence to those who own them), so not really considering them at the moment, but interested if they're more attractive because some of the other benefits and whether I should add them to my list.
Click to expand...
Tesla have their own network, they are all fast, and all the cars can charge quick too. Telsa's can also use CCS chargers, which are the most common charges that people like me use, without a Tesla.

There is talk of Tesla opening up their network to other cars, and there has been trials, but not sure if it will happen totally, probably will.

I'm not mad on the look of Tesla's from the rear, but they are very good tech, very efficient, the market leader and will hold value better than cheaper EV's I expect.
 
SmallTown said:
Its a lie because, as already mentioned on this thread, even with 100% fossil fuel energy supplies, EVs become better for the environment eventually.

So, your thread showing that we currently produce a fifth of our energy from renewable sources doesn't prove what you think it does.
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Eventually?

what like in 10 years, 20 year 50 years? or 1000 years?

Lets not forget the social economic aspect. Ev's are only in reach of the "wealthy", as is a home based charging system.

around 5m people in he UK currently pay for their energy on a prepayment card, and about 20% of people in the Uk live in rented accommodation.

like I said, an answer, but not "the" answer.

I think the push back to electric cars stems from different places. Its a bit preachy if I am honest, and some people feel like its being rammed down their throats and they are having freedom of choices removed.

Personally, I am on my 2nd plug in Hybrid Ev company car, and it the nicest, most comfortable, best speced and fastest car I have ever driven, But it was £60k, and has had several software updates (remote and in person) in the 2 years i have had it. Would I spend my own money on one right now? no I would not, and I would be concerned about spending my own money on a 3 year old 2nd hand one if I am honest.

Plus all the recent nonsense around rising energy prices and decreased energy security (depending on either Russia or the middle east for >50% of our energy) only increases my concerns.

The EV technology is sound, but its still very early days for me.
 
Billy69_uk said:
Eventually?

what like in 10 years, 20 year 50 years? or 1000 years?

Lets not forget the social economic aspect. Ev's are only in reach of the "wealthy", as is a home based charging system.

around 5m people in he UK currently pay for their energy on a prepayment card, and about 20% of people in the Uk live in rented accommodation.

like I said, an answer, but not "the" answer.

I think the push back to electric cars stems from different places. Its a bit preachy if I am honest, and some people feel like its being rammed down their throats and they are having freedom of choices removed.

Personally, I am on my 2nd plug in Hybrid Ev company car, and it the nicest, most comfortable, best speced and fastest car I have ever driven, But it was £60k, and has had several software updates (remote and in person) in the 2 years i have had it. Would I spend my own money on one right now? no I would not, and I would be concerned about spending my own money on a 3 year old 2nd hand one if I am honest.

Plus all the recent nonsense around rising energy prices and decreased energy security (depending on either Russia or the middle east for >50% of our energy) only increases my concerns.

The EV technology is sound, but its still very early days for me.
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No, Eventually as in after a given number of miles. Have you not read the thread? I don't think it's about freedom of choice being removed, it's about personal transportation technology moving on. We need to move from vehicles that burn petrol and towards vehicles that are better for the environment.

For what it's worth, I live in rented accomodation. I still own an EV so that's not even an argument
 
Andy_W said:
Tesla have their own network, they are all fast, and all the cars can charge quick too. Telsa's can also use CCS chargers, which are the most common charges that people like me use, without a Tesla.

There is talk of Tesla opening up their network to other cars, and there has been trials, but not sure if it will happen totally, probably will.

I'm not mad on the look of Tesla's from the rear, but they are very good tech, very efficient, the market leader and will hold value better than cheaper EV's I expect.
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They do hold their values well. I have no idea why though!

I think there is a certain inevitably about tesla opening up their charring network in Europe. They already have in the Netherlands. The US is less likely. As you mention, European cars use CCS which is becoming the de facto standard (Sorry, Leaf owners) whereas they as a propriety connecter in the US. I honestly think Tesla are like apple though, in that marketing and "brand image" are driving sales over technology and actually quality of product. I guess this is the reason why residuals are so high? it's better in the modern consumer world to be desirable than to be good
 
SmallTown said:
I genuinely and truly don't believe Range anxiety is a thing. I know the phrase was made up by GM when their EV1 failed as a way to push people away from other EVs.

You've hit upon a good point though. Charger anxiety does exist. On my last trip to the Norah East I went away from my "walled garden" supercharger network. I did no trip planning and literally just stopped to charge wherever me or the OH wanted a Wee or a drink. This led to a broken Shell recharge charger on the way up (there were 4 chargers, 2 broken and 2 in use) Luckily one of the guys charging was leaving so I could swap stalls.

On the way back I stopped at a welcome break. I didn't know until afterwards that they won't let Gridserve/Ecotricity on site to repair their chargers so they are pretty much all broken. This is obviously something that needs sorting out sharply.
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Range anxiety and charger anxiety - that's a distinction without a difference. If you are going somewhere necessitating an overnight stay, you have to check out where you can recharge, hope that it's working, hope that it's not in use, and maybe take the car somewhere (hopefully) near by to where you are staying. Then walk back to the hotel, and maybe walk back to the car later, or if you've been drinking, the next day. Or trail cables out of the window and hope it doesn't trip the hotel electrics. Or change your plan for the following day to include a charging stop somewhere.

It's just not as simple as a combustion engine car. Until it is, then there'll always be anxiety about charging your electric car.
 
Soutra said:
Range anxiety and charger anxiety - that's a distinction without a difference. If you are going somewhere necessitating an overnight stay, you have to check out where you can recharge, hope that it's working, hope that it's not in use, and maybe take the car somewhere (hopefully) near by to where you are staying. Then walk back to the hotel, and maybe walk back to the car later, or if you've been drinking, the next day. Or trail cables out of the window and hope it doesn't trip the hotel electrics. Or change your plan for the following day to include a charging stop somewhere.

It's just not as simple as a combustion engine car. Until it is, then there'll always be anxiety about charging your electric car.
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Like we said, charger anxiety exists. Range anxiety doesn't.

Interesting you think it isn't as simple as charging a combustion engine car. if you have destination charging and/or home charging then it's significantly simpler to refuel and EV than an ICE vehicle.

Also, it should be noted, pretty much all charging and range arguments that are brought up against EVs ignored 95% of the journeys that we all make. I can understand why people who want to defend ICE will concentrate on long journeys because it's easier to form anti EV arguments there but the simple fact is, most of us, for most of our journeys, travel well within the range of even the smallest battery EV. An awful lot of effort seems to go into arguing against EV on the ground of one solitary annual holiday car ride a year that completely ignores the 95% an EV is just saving you money compared to an IC vehicle.
 
What about the hybrids that exist, for example the Volvo XC90 which confirm the best of both worlds - interested in any opinions on that option which to me looks like you can have a EV for short journeys (50 miles or so) and then switch to petrol should it be needed.
 
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