Shamima Begum refused return to UK

Heam44 said:
Yeah I’m not saying the courts decision are illegal or anything like that.

I was commenting on your “she was nearly 16” remark.

Of course she was above age of legal responsibility being above 10. But based on your logic you would have held her responsible leadership if she was nearly 9yrs 6 months.

Anyway whether she was 15 or 25 I still wouldn’t rescind her citizenship as I feel washing our hands of her isn’t the right thing to do.

Imagine if terrorists from another country came to the UK and did what ISIS did and then once we’d caught them we were told that their citizenship had now been revoked and that they were our problem.

In my opinion we should take responsibility for our own.
Click to expand...
All I was doing is highlighting the fact that in parts of the UK children have the right to vote and she was just 6 months short of that age. A switch does not flick on your birthday as you know. She was over the age of criminal responsibility. You disagree with elements, fine, butI am sure the courts will have taken account of her age and no doubt her capacity, don’t you think?
 
Alzi said:
Anyone under 18 is a child, fact. That’s the law. It’s nothing to do with “maturity”.

Whilst I understand the high court outcome the situation is very sad and ultimately society has failed a 15 year old child by not preventing the grooming / radicalisation.
Click to expand...

Agree with this, its too easy to just blame a 15 year old girl. She's been failed and she's made some unbelievably bad choices but ultimately its just a really sad situation that a girl can end up doing what she has done and then the courts have to do what they have done.

She's been let down across the board, 15 year olds shouldn't be able to become so radicalised they make the choices she has. A 15 year old is so immature even the most mature of them are still green behind the ears and silly kids.
 
coluka said:
What a pathetic and sick analogy.
Click to expand...
Having worked to help children who have been raped and tortured, made to kill their pets, encouraged to assault and inflict pain on other children, including siblings, forced to steal and deal in drugs. I actually find this comment offensive. Are you saying some of these children knew what they were doing and did this things deliberately? Without being groomed? Or instructed in how to commit these deeds? Because if you are then I think you need to give your head a shake.
As for "I have pointed out that the courts will have considered her age and many other factors In arriving at their decision."
Anyone under 18 is a child in the eyes of the law. There is no discrimination in that matter.
If a grown man has sex with a girl under 16 it is rape- no matter how "mature" that child is.
 
brain_in_a_jar said:
Agree with this, its too easy to just blame a 15 year old girl. She's been failed and she's made some unbelievably bad choices but ultimately its just a really sad situation that a girl can end up doing what she has done and then the courts have to do what they have done.

She's been let down across the board, 15 year olds shouldn't be able to become so radicalised they make the choices she has. A 15 year old is so immature even the most mature of them are still green behind the ears and silly kids.
Click to expand...
I agree it’s sad. But what’s done is done I’m afraid and I wouldn’t want her walking our streets.
 
A few years ago there was a lot of news headlines about British citizens leaving this country to join ISIS in Afghanistan and other places. My view has always been - let them go and do whatever they want, they will probably be killed in the end by a US drone strike or captured etc. But if they do survive we don't ever let them back into this country. I have not really changed my mind on this.

Where this case differs is that this is a child (or was at the time she foolishly went). That I feel makes this more difficult and far less clear cut. The arguments and opinions are all here on this thread already, and I can see both sides. Perhaps this decision will deter some people foolish enough to consider joining such radical forces in the future - when it all goes wrong, you cant simply come back to live in comfy UK suburbia with your flat screen TV and Dora the Explorer duvet set.
 
Shes our "problem" we should accept our responsibility rather than passing it on to another country to deal with.
And theres definitely double standards from the usual suspects in relation to her age and whether she was groomed.
 
Randy said:
No because that isn't the same thing is it?

Would we be hearing about any of this if ISIS was still running rampant? No we wouldn't.

What's the plan? Go on educate me. Notice that I'll more than likely get jumped on again even though more respected members of the board have said basically the same thing but they won't get called out 😉
Click to expand...
So coercion is only coercion if it's relating to sex. If it's relating to being radicalised it's not the same thing?

Am I jumping on you? Your reaction toward me is interesting when all I've done is point out politely the flaw in your argument.
 
coluka said:
All I was doing is highlighting the fact that in parts of the UK children have the right to vote and she was just 6 months short of that age. A switch does not flick on your birthday as you know. She was over the age of criminal responsibility. You disagree with elements, fine, butI am sure the courts will have taken account of her age and no doubt her capacity, don’t you think?
Click to expand...
Yeah of course her age will have been taken into account.

But my initial comment was just in regards to the theory / logic behind your comments - “people in some part of the UK can vote at 16 and she was nearly 16”. In my opinion that theory is both flawed and irrelevant.

But to be honest, in my opinion her age is entirely irrelevant, because as I’ve stated I’d bring her back to the UK whatever age she was. Her age would only become relevance upon sentencing.
 
FatCat said:
I think the counter argument would be that she was damaged beyond repair at a young age so how she has turned out is not her fault.

not necessarily my argument but there is some logic in taht way of thinking.
Click to expand...

Understood, but the fact remains - it's not in our interest to have a grown adult who advocates terrorism on UK soil
 
TommyPlus said:
Here you go completely embarrassing yourself as usual.

Come on Randy we are waiting for your answer.
Click to expand...

On 13 February 2019, The Times' war correspondent Anthony Loyd found Begum at the al-Hawl refugee camp in Northern Syria, in what one newspaper described as "scoop of the decade".
When interviewed, Begum revealed that she was nine months pregnant and hoped to return to the UK to raise her child, but did not regret her decision to join ISIL.

Begum was interviewed by BBC correspondent Quentin Sommerville on 18 February. During the interview, Begum asked for forgiveness and claimed that she still supports "some British values". She said she was inspired to join ISIL by videos of fighters beheading hostages and also of "the good life" under the group. However, Sommerville noted that she continues to espouse the ISIL ideology and justify its atrocities. When asked about the Manchester Arena bombing, she claimed it was wrong to kill innocent people, but that ISIL deemed it justified as retaliation for the coalition bombing of ISIL-held areas. When questioned about the rape, enslavement and murder of Yazidi women, she claimed, "Shia do the same in Iraq".


Yep model citizen. The court of the land is probably looking to make an example out of her to prevent anything similar happening in the future. Is that a bad thing?
 
jam69 said:
Shes our "problem" we should accept our responsibility rather than passing it on to another country to deal with.
And theres definitely double standards from the usual suspects in relation to her age and whether she was groomed.
Click to expand...
What would you do with her ?
 
Trug said:
Having worked to help children who have been raped and tortured, made to kill their pets, encouraged to assault and inflict pain on other children, including siblings, forced to steal and deal in drugs. I actually find this comment offensive. Are you saying some of these children knew what they were doing and did this things deliberately? Without being groomed? Or instructed in how to commit these deeds? Because if you are then I think you need to give your head a shake.
As for "I have pointed out that the courts will have considered her age and many other factors In arriving at their decision."
Anyone under 18 is a child in the eyes of the law. There is no discrimination in that matter.
If a grown man has sex with a girl under 16 it is rape- no matter how "mature" that child is.
Click to expand...
Of course not i am talking about Begum being a 15 and a half year old at the time with the mental capacity to make her decisions and choices regarding her citizenship and terrorism. The courts will have taken account of these and other factors in her particular case. Why people are widening it is beyond me to make false assumptions regarding other matters and criminal offences. this is not a child protection case. I found Corcaighs analogy pathetic for widening it. The courts look at many factors and made their decision age and capacity will have been a factor and will be in her appeal.
 
Primus84 said:
So coercion is only coercion if it's relating to sex. If it's relating to being radicalised it's not the same thing?

Am I jumping on you? Your reaction toward me is interesting when all I've done is point out politely the flaw in your argument.
Click to expand...
After having discussions with you in the past fella and then ultimately been banned from the board for a few months (that might be me putting two and two together and making five, that maybe true) then I'm unwilling to get into another discussion with you.

There isn't a right or wrong answer to the Begum question.

I'm not the one comparing pedophilia with fighting for a failed attempted state.
 
TheFair86 said:
This is a sticky point for me. My mate works in a counter terrorism unit and makes a great point that if a 15 year old girl is groomed by a pedophile we aim for the pedophile and try support the girl who was brainwashed. But in this case we demonise her. I have to admit I was totally on the other side of this until I thought that through. She was an undeveloped immature child that was deliberately targeted 🤷🏻‍♂️ Not saying it’s right or wrong, but there is definitely a disconnect there I think.
Click to expand...

Before reading your post Fair86 I was thinking how everybody is concerned about the mental health of our school children when they have missed a few months of school. Some the same age as this girl when she was indoctrinated. What must the state of her mental health be. I also agree with the post by FatCat that said she was probably damaged beyond repair at that young age. Its a hard call to make IMO. If she had committed a crime over here she would have to serve her time and would hopefully be rehabilitated back into society. Instead she is sort of cast adrift due to us taking away her British nationallity on the grounds of national security.
 
Centralscrutinizer said:
Online forum handy hint #251. Save the trouble of going over the same argument by Looking at the last thread on the same subject.
Click to expand...

Same arguments, different day. I'm not sure any of the opinions have changed. I often wonder what would have to happen to a person change the polars of opinion- not just in this instance but with opinions more generally. Perhaps until you walk in those shoes, although this is such a unique circumstance I presume very few people would ever truly be able to identify with it.
 
brain_in_a_jar said:
Agree with this, its too easy to just blame a 15 year old girl. She's been failed and she's made some unbelievably bad choices but ultimately its just a really sad situation that a girl can end up doing what she has done and then the courts have to do what they have done.

She's been let down across the board, 15 year olds shouldn't be able to become so radicalised they make the choices she has. A 15 year old is so immature even the most mature of them are still green behind the ears and silly kids.
Click to expand...
Smacks of a government reneging on their responsibility.
 
Randy said:
After having discussions with you in the last fella and then ultimately been banned from the board for a few months (that might be me putting two and two together and making five, that maybe true) then I'm unwilling to get into another discussion with you.

There isn't a right or wrong answer to the Begum question.
Click to expand...
I'm really not sure what you're referring to there - the only conversation I recall us having was over schools and lockdown.

If you got banned then that's on you, not on others - you're a grown man and can make your own choices in a similar way to how you're suggesting a 15 year girl could.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top