Michael carrick into 6/1 second fav

1998-99 PL 9th
99-2000. PL 12th
00-01. PL 14th
01-02. PL 12th
02-03. PL 11th
03-04 PL 11th
04-05. PL 7th
05-06. PL 14th
06-07. PL 12th
07-08. PL 13th
08-09 PL 19th

09-10. Ch 11th
10-11. Ch 12th
11-12. Ch 7th
12-13 Ch 16th
13-14 Ch 12th Karanka rescues the season
14-15. Ch 4th.
15-16 Ch 2nd
16-17. PL 19th Karanka sacked without a plan.
17-18. Ch 5th
18-19. Ch 7th
19-20. Ch 17th
20-21. Ch 10th
21-22. Ch 7th.

It looks fairly clear Viv that the club has gone backwards on the pitch.
(A comparison of financial positions would make even worse reading and sorry Viv, but that does matter)
If a club is genuinely in decline, how does it finish higher one season than it did the previous one or two? How are you measuring decline?

Surely decline means that club is finishing lower each year. Everyone, or almost everyone, was saying in the summer - including yourself I think - that the chairman had got the big calls right of late and we needed a good window to push on. How has that all changed?

There are questions about our midfield. I don’t really see how not signing a midfielder has led to these calls for root and branch reform.
 
Incidentally we’re pretty much exactly where we were in terms of squad and what needs to be done when Aitor took over from Mowbray.
Whilst I see where you are coming from and broadly agree, we've probably spent getting on for £90 million on players in the second tier since then. There can't be many who have spent more and not gone up? Much smaller and less well resourced clubs have overtaken us with good decision making and appointments (and probably a bit of luck too), we sit 22nd and crippled with huge debts, no manager and barely three champ level midfielders to put out.

I don't think people are being unreasonable in stating that's pretty poor management of the club from the top.

Football is always a bit cyclical in nature, hopefully we are at the Mowbray wilderness year bottoming out stage now, and the new appointment will see us rise like a phoenix as we did under Karanka.

UTB
 
Incidentally we’re pretty much exactly where we were in terms of squad and what needs to be done when Aitor took over from Mowbray.
I can agree with this to a degree, because we were in freefall under Mowbray for the second successive season.
Let's see if we get a Karanka quality appointment and whether Gibson backs the new appointment in the way he backed Karanka up to 2016 where a fair chunk was spent on the squad and their wages.
That investment by Gibson (he even put £8m in himself in 2016) was bold and bore fruit because the faith was put in the right approach and the right man.
 
It always seems to be a temporary fix though. The reason we had such an issue signing strikers was because we had 3 on loan last season which none of them were ever going to be long term. That’s a lot to be replacing every summer because we keep filling our squad with loans.

This summer we are also going to have to replace Munez, Mowatt, Giles and Steffan. 4 key positions where we will be loosing loan players so fully expect us to be in the same position again next summer scraping the barrel for players because we can’t afford or can’t attract the players we actually need in time for the season starting
The reality is that we are competing with many other peer clubs for the same players and loans make more sense if the club can't get in the standard they want on a permanent basis.

Equally, loans offer the opportunity to acquire players that would be out of our reach on a permanent basis, such as Giles, plus they can make sense financially too.
 
The reality is that we are competing with many other peer clubs for the same players and loans make more sense if the club can't get in the standard they want on a permanent basis.

Equally, loans offer the opportunity to acquire players that would be out of our reach on a permanent basis, such as Giles, plus they can make sense financially too.
Which is why having a pull factor like carrick will be key to getting them over the line.
 
How are you measuring decline?
Quality of the squad (that we own), buying players and not taking huge losses and losing them on frees. Competing at our budget level, not being overtaken by 'smaller' clubs who have spent less than us. Not increase the debt of the club year on year meaning we are tied to Gibson for ever and absolutely fooked if anything happens to him/Bulkhaul.
 
Well

Well what you’re saying doesn’t really make sense and certainly lacks nuance. Can 15-year long decline include the two full seasons under Karanka? Surely this decline ends with his appointment and the promotion, or at least ends the first spell of this decline.

You could say we’ve been in decline since 2017. But even then, we’ve been in the playoffs after relegation and then gone from 7th to 17th to 10th and back to 7th. To me that isn’t really what actual decline looks like. In fact going off league positions of the past couple of years, we’ve seen improvements. And I think this group of players is much better than 21st/22nd in the Championship.

There are some shortcomings. But just declaring that there’s been a decade and a half of decline, a disgrace, nothing but poor decisions, demanding people are hauled over the coals or sacked, it’s just nonsense IMO. I’m not even sure I’m really defending Gibson either. I just don’t see what dredging up stuff from 2008 or 2013 achieves when assessing the fact we need to strengthen the midfield and tighten up at the back.

Incidentally we’re pretty much exactly where we were in terms of squad and what needs to be done when Aitor took over from Mowbray.
Whichever way you look at it we have declined I can’t really see how you can argue that

Fair enough if you don’t want to go 15 years back but under Karanka we finally found ourselves In a position of strength, we were in the premier league with the huge amounts of money involved. Through some utterly bizarre decisions by Gibson we managed to throw that away and some even worse decision making threw away the parachute money which should have got us promoted again. Since that we have pretty much gone from disaster to disaster without ever really coming close to promotion again. At the moment we look a million miles off even a playoff place. I don’t see how that’s an owner doing a good job
 
The reality is that we are competing with many other peer clubs for the same players and loans make more sense if the club can't get in the standard they want on a permanent basis.

Equally, loans offer the opportunity to acquire players that would be out of our reach on a permanent basis, such as Giles, plus they can make sense financially too.
The odd loan makes sense but filling the squad full of them doesn’t. How can we ever build a squad capable of competing long term when we loose 3/4 key players every single summer?

A clubs like ours should be building a squad that will be here long term with a long term manager where we can sell players on for a profit to reinvest in the squad. Developing loan players for other clubs then sending them back every summer doesn’t benefit us at all. It’s very expensive and not sustainable for a club our size

We were 4/5 games into a season by the time we got some of our signings in this summer, that’s all signings with no pre season that could take months to get up to speed, we missed out on key positions because we have just so many positions where we needed players and not the funds or time to replace them all meaning we went into the season massively under prepared, it’s little surprise we struggled so much and the exact same thing will happen again next season
 
If a club is genuinely in decline, how does it finish higher one season than it did the previous one or two? How are you measuring decline?

Surely decline means that club is finishing lower each year. Everyone, or almost everyone, was saying in the summer - including yourself I think - that the chairman had got the big calls right of late and we needed a good window to push on. How has that all changed?

There are questions about our midfield. I don’t really see how not signing a midfielder has led to these calls for root and branch reform.
Are you being deliberately obtuse?

The fact is we have gone from being an established PL club, to an established Championship club over the course of the last 16 seasons.

You appear to be another who wants to take my comments out of context re "Big calls right". There is absolutely nothing contradictory in anything I have posted
I have praised Gibson consistently for 93-06.
The Club has been in steep decline on and off the pitch since 06, certainly since 08, bar a brief period where Kenyon brought Karanka in.
I gave him the benefit in April/May this year, when I posted about being optimistic given I thought that from 2020 and sacking Woodgate/bringing in Warnock, through to May 22 he appeared to have got the big calls right after a disastrous 2016-20 and that he was setting up to have a go given the planets were aligning. I even defended this part way through what was turning out to be a disappointing window, until it became obvious he was withholding funds/incapable of recruiting the quality required. We had another horrendous transfer window in case you missed it. We are now deservedly in 21st position in the Championship.
Read my comments on the Where is Gibson thread to get perspective rather than quote me out of context.
 
15 years ago we were in the premier league having recently played in a European cup final and now we are in the championship relegation zone. Even 6 years ago we were in the premier league and you don’t think we have gone backwards?
Ultimately we had a squad and manager last season that showed signs of being able to challenge at the top, the best player was sold this summer which includes 25 million worth of player sales and our response was to sign Mowatt on loan who couldn’t even get into another championship side and get rid of Payero when we had no replacement lined up. Try to defend Gibson all you want but that’s yet another example of how badly this club is being run
Bit of a redundant argument to say the championship is lower down in stature than the premier league or a European cup final. Sounds like we’re on the verge of bringing in a very exiting and highly regarded young manager.. possibly with a decent kitty to go at in January.. new scout brought in from Crystal Palace. All of this after trying former prem manager of the year. We tried more than most and it didn’t work out, but it hasn’t destroyed us and we get to go again.
 
If a club is genuinely in decline, how does it finish higher one season than it did the previous one or two? How are you measuring decline?

Surely decline means that club is finishing lower each year. Everyone, or almost everyone, was saying in the summer - including yourself I think - that the chairman had got the big calls right of late and we needed a good window to push on. How has that all changed?

There are questions about our midfield. I don’t really see how not signing a midfielder has led to these calls for root and branch reform.
Decline punctuated with the occasional decent season. zoom out. the overall trend is in decline.
 
Bit of a redundant argument to say the championship is lower down in stature than the premier league or a European cup final. Sounds like we’re on the verge of bringing in a very exiting and highly regarded young manager.. possibly with a decent kitty to go at in January.. new scout brought in from Crystal Palace. All of this after trying former prem manager of the year. We tried more than most and it didn’t work out, but it hasn’t destroyed us and we get to go again.
Well that’s one way of looking at it I guess….

I would be shocked if we spend more than a few million in Jan, if we do it begs the question why didn’t we spend in the summer when the squad was clearly so lacking

I admire you trying to put a positive spin on things but the reality is we are in the championship relegation zone about to name our 7th manager in just over 5 years. That’s not progress
 
Haven't we just fallen back to our historic "average" position for the club?

Roughly top half of the second tier or in the top tier?

The PL years under Robbo (and to some extent the McLaren years) can be written off as pre-FFP where we spent significant money to achieve those positions.

From Southgate onwards that spend simply hasn't been there. Yes we spent under Karanka to get promoted (not massively outstripping our rivals in terms of ££ spent) and wasted the parachute payments following.

Without parachute payments I don't see how we can realistically target the top 2 automatic position (potentially ever?) so we're aiming for playoffs, along with 22 other teams in the division.

We're clearly underperforming this season, but could it be also true that we overperformed when Wilder first arrived? In my view, we're probably a mid-top half championship side. We can't afford to throw money at the issue so we either rely on a manager who can get the squad to overperform, or become smarter with the money we do spend. Hopefully Scott brings the latter, we just need the correct appointment to bring the former.

I do think we need to be mindful of timelines too. Providing we have "competitive" funds to spend (in line with or above average for the division) and recruit smartly, we could get back to the playoffs but three years seems a sensible timeline, particularly if the style and system of football is going to change from what's gone before. I'm aware that we're "only 8" points off the playoffs, but crucially, 14 other teams are 8 points or less from there.
 
Well that’s one way of looking at it I guess….

I would be shocked if we spend more than a few million in Jan, if we do it begs the question why didn’t we spend in the summer when the squad was clearly so lacking

I admire you trying to put a positive spin on things but the reality is we are in the championship relegation zone about to name our 7th manager in just over 5 years. That’s not progress
We didn’t spend because we don’t have it.. at least not to gamble on. We got the money in late for Spence and the sale for Tavernier looks to have been spread over all the incomings. Fry was due to be sold this summer.. he didn’t want to go. Maybe that effected some targets also. I happen to think we would have been screwed if Fry had been sold to pay for a big ticket striker.

7 managers? Monk, Pulis, Woodgate, Warnock, Wilder..

We are in the relegation zone.. if we don’t get relegated will you view that as progress?
or do we need to win a European cup?
 
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