344 covid deaths today

Where did you get the 18,000 figure from? It is completely wide of the mark. This would equate to 6,570,000 people per year. Genuinely interested how you arrived at this figure.
BBC website - apologies to the Board I have quoted a weekly figure as a daily figure. The graph on the BBC website shows what % of total deaths have C19 quoted.

 
I agree it isn't the only thing in society that matters. But a functioning health service is extremely important. Imagine being in a country were basic treatments can't be given? Which is what will happen if the NHS gets overwhelmed. As nice as it would be to all be free and keep peoples lives running as they were before. If it's at the cost of not being able to receive medical treatment, I don't think it's a cost worth paying.
For me, the important thing is that it forms part of the conversation and though process when forming these decisions l, previously it was mentioned but never really seriously considered I.e closing schools. Its important that society accepts there are casualties from having restrictions and also not having them. As long as it is a balanced opinion with all eventualities looked at, it will get my support, however in Scotland and Wales for example, tighter curbs have been bought in with no impact on cases at ll, its those sorts of knee jerk reactions that need to be considered more thoughtfully moving forward, "what impact does this have on health vs impact on society right now in Wales it looks like a huge miss step. Please note, I know Boris got lucky here rather than by design!
 
I get that, but society cannot be permanently run based on its health service capacity. We are a country with a health service, not a health service with a country. Every year since 2010 there has been a headline stating the immenent collapse of the health service, I believe that is true, but the point is that the headlines are no different now to what they were in 2010. Restrictions at this point delay and spread the spread to help health services cope, I'm saying that this is not the only thing in society that matters, and that is heighten more so now that we are dealing with a less serious varient. It needs to be considered rather than just dismissed for public health reasons.
Headlines are just headlines, sensationalised, meant to catch the eye - they aren't going to say (in 2010) "The NHS is really struggling, but it could be worse". The headlines might be the same but the context of why is much different.
 
Since 2010 quality of care has decreased, so whilst it was messed up in 2010, it had got better than the years preceding (thanks to Labour), it's got worse and worse every year under Tory rule, and waiting lists have grown and grown every year.

1641474862753.png

If you're writing the headline "The NHS is ****ed" in 2010, then it's probably true for standards which we were used too.
The headlines we get every year since, saying the "The NHS is ****ed", still applies as it's got worse, and doesn't excuse how "less ****ed" it was in 2010 etc.

Tories can blame Covid for maybe slightly accelerating their **** up, but the've been cocking it up for a long time. Covid's added maybe 500k on to the waiting list, but Tories have added 2.5m onto that, off their own back.
 
For me, the important thing is that it forms part of the conversation and though process when forming these decisions l, previously it was mentioned but never really seriously considered I.e closing schools. Its important that society accepts there are casualties from having restrictions and also not having them. As long as it is a balanced opinion with all eventualities looked at, it will get my support, however in Scotland and Wales for example, tighter curbs have been bought in with no impact on cases at ll, its those sorts of knee jerk reactions that need to be considered more thoughtfully moving forward, "what impact does this have on health vs impact on society right now in Wales it looks like a huge miss step. Please note, I know Boris got lucky here rather than by design!
The problem is that people can take different figures over different periods of time and often mitigate or reason against those figures. When you're looking at a virus that obviously has time lags, plus other factors come into play.

The ONS said that in the week up to 31 Dec, England had an estimated 1 in 15 people carrying the virus.

In Scotland and Wales, the estimate was 1 in 20.

If you don't like those figures, you'll point out some areas of England (like the South West) had a lower case rate estimate than both of those. You would say that the population density is higher than in England and where it is highest (London) is where the higher incidence occurs. If I don't agree with you, I'd point out that nearly 40% of Scotland's population is in Edinburgh and Glasgow, whereas London is around 15% of England's population.

You could go round and round in circles. At the end of the day each government has the legal right to implement what it thinks is right.
 
Since 2010 quality of care has decreased, so whilst it was messed up in 2010, it had got better than the years preceding (thanks to Labour), it's got worse and worse every year under Tory rule, and waiting lists have grown and grown every year.

View attachment 30823

If you're writing the headline "The NHS is ****ed" in 2010, then it's probably true for standards which we were used too.
The headlines we get every year since, saying the "The NHS is ****ed", still applies as it's got worse, and doesn't excuse how "less ****ed" it was in 2010 etc.

Tories can blame Covid for maybe slightly accelerating their **** up, but the've been cocking it up for a long time. Covid's added maybe 500k on to the waiting list, but Tories have added 2.5m onto that, off their own back.
I promise I'm not stalking you, but was just about to post something very similar. The NHS is f**ked because of Tory cuts in the last 10 or so years and Covid is a convenient lampost to hide behind.
 
Since 2010 quality of care has decreased, so whilst it was messed up in 2010, it had got better than the years preceding (thanks to Labour), it's got worse and worse every year under Tory rule, and waiting lists have grown and grown every year.

View attachment 30823

If you're writing the headline "The NHS is ****ed" in 2010, then it's probably true for standards which we were used too.
The headlines we get every year since, saying the "The NHS is ****ed", still applies as it's got worse, and doesn't excuse how "less ****ed" it was in 2010 etc.

Tories can blame Covid for maybe slightly accelerating their **** up, but the've been cocking it up for a long time. Covid's added maybe 500k on to the waiting list, but Tories have added 2.5m onto that, off their own back.
Same with the criminal justice system and the backlog of cases waiting to be heard.

The Tories have deliberately underfunded huge parts of structures that they are responsible for and very little gets said, but they get the credit for partly reversing policy afterwards.

The shortfall in NHS spending compared to the historical spending is particularly eye watering. They have underspent by hundreds of Billions of pounds in the last 10-11 years.
 
I promise I'm not stalking you, but was just about to post something very similar. The NHS is f**ked because of Tory cuts in the last 10 or so years and Covid is a convenient lampost to hide behind.
:LOL: (y)

Yeah, don't let the Tories hide behind Covid, this is all their own doing, the graphs certainly don't lie.
 
Same with the criminal justice system and the backlog of cases waiting to be heard.

The Tories have deliberately underfunded huge parts of structures that they are responsible for and very little gets said, but they get the credit for partly reversing policy afterwards.

The shortfall in NHS spending compared to the historical spending is particularly eye watering. They have underspent by hundreds of Billions of pounds in the last 10-11 years.
Yeah they like to take £100 off you, and then give you £10 back, and tell you you're in £10 profit. *****.
 
Same with the criminal justice system and the backlog of cases waiting to be heard.

The Tories have deliberately underfunded huge parts of structures that they are responsible for and very little gets said, but they get the credit for partly reversing policy afterwards.

The shortfall in NHS spending compared to the historical spending is particularly eye watering. They have underspent by hundreds of Billions of pounds in the last 10-11 years.
Don't disagree with any of that, I am unconvinced that restrictions will be for the greater good, but I whole heartedly want tories gone. I still disagree that restrictions are a sensible course of action at this point. In fairness to the OP, he never mentioned restrictions l, but it is ultimately assumed that this is where the debate would lead. One thing we all agree on though is noone wants anyone to lose a loved one, we just disagree on how best to handle this.
 
I've just done a quick calculation based on the Kings Fund figures.

Taking inflation out, so at current 2021 prices, the Tories underspent on the NHS core budget (in England) by more than £300 Billion in ten years compared to if they had increased spending at historical rates.
 
I promise I'm not stalking you, but was just about to post something very similar. The NHS is f**ked because of Tory cuts in the last 10 or so years and Covid is a convenient lampost to hide behind.
I've noticed the language/attitude from Govt spokespeople changing since Christmas from 'we must protect the NHS' to 'the NHS is close to collapse, the bloody idiots'. I think those running the Conservatives have moved on to using COVID as the opportunity to finally wrestle the NHS away from public control and to set the foundation for the fire sale that opens the door fully for private providers.

Every decision made by this government over last decade has been based on removing non-profitable (but essential to many) services away from government responsibility and replace it with inferior service or circumstances so desparate people have no choice but to look for alternatives. They are strangling the NHS, its people and its abilities while asking us Middle England to bang their pots and pans to support the NHS, and this will be the culmination.
 
BBC website - apologies to the Board I have quoted a weekly figure as a daily figure. The graph on the BBC website shows what % of total deaths have C19 quoted.


ONS total deaths figures in England and Wales from 13 March 2020 to 3 December 2021 are 1,037,347.

That's 90 weeks, dividing the two equals 11,526 per week.

Or 1,647 per day.

170 deaths per day from Covid looks a bit different when it's put like that doesn't it?
 
I've just done a quick calculation based on the Kings Fund figures.

Taking inflation out, so at current 2021 prices, the Tories underspent on the NHS core budget (in England) by more than £300 Billion in ten years compared to if they had increased spending at historical rates.
Jesus F***ing christ, that's an absolute joke.

Then through the brexit b***ks they had the audacity to claim they could give 350m to the NHS per week.

The thing is, as they wrote it on a big red bus, you would think it would have been right up their priority list? Where as in reality they've been underfunding them by 350m for an effective 857 weeks (300bn/ 350m). Or under funding them by about 500m per week, in the time they've been in power.
 
The "Uncomfortable Truth" is that the Tories are just doing what they always do - they are just doing it particularly badly and callously this time round.

They consistently and chronically under-invest in anything related to Well-Being and Welfare - that's their "Modus Operendae" - they are all about Laissez-Faire economics.

It's not just the NHS either, its also Social Care, and the lowest common denominator in terms of providing the most standard of living to our poorest citizens through the benefits system.

In the NHS and in Primary Care, Waiting Lists have never been longer, and 97% of people report it being difficult or very difficult to get to see a GP.

In Social Care, it is virtually impossible to get care for an elderly relative in their own home without paying for all of it yourself. 30 years ago, all such care was free. In the 2019 General Election, Boris told us that he had a plan for Social Care - Its now 2022, and nothing has been spent. I work in Social Care, the word "crisis" doesnt even scratch the surface.

In the Welfare State - well, 12 years ago, there were less than 40 Food Banks in the UK - now there are over 4000. Those who struggle, struggle more than ever before - and when Energy Prices go through the roof, fuel poverty will be rife in a matter of 3 months.

That "Uncomfortable Truth", that they will never admit, is that the Conservative Party couldnt care less about the poor. They only care about their own. The NHS is an irrelevance to them, because their core support wont use it.

I only wish they would own their own ethos and be honest about it.
 
The "Uncomfortable Truth" is that the Tories are just doing what they always do - they are just doing it particularly badly and callously this time round.

They consistently and chronically under-invest in anything related to Well-Being and Welfare - that's their "Modus Operendae" - they are all about Laissez-Faire economics.

It's not just the NHS either, its also Social Care, and the lowest common denominator in terms of providing the most standard of living to our poorest citizens through the benefits system.

In the NHS and in Primary Care, Waiting Lists have never been longer, and 97% of people report it being difficult or very difficult to get to see a GP.

In Social Care, it is virtually impossible to get care for an elderly relative in their own home without paying for all of it yourself. 30 years ago, all such care was free. In the 2019 General Election, Boris told us that he had a plan for Social Care - Its now 2022, and nothing has been spent. I work in Social Care, the word "crisis" doesnt even scratch the surface.

In the Welfare State - well, 12 years ago, there were less than 40 Food Banks in the UK - now there are over 4000. Those who struggle, struggle more than ever before - and when Energy Prices go through the roof, fuel poverty will be rife in a matter of 3 months.

That "Uncomfortable Truth", that they will never admit, is that the Conservative Party couldnt care less about the poor. They only care about their own. The NHS is an irrelevance to them, because their core support wont use it.

I only wish they would own their own ethos and be honest about it.
They're worse now and further right than they've ever been, and less for the common man than they've ever been, despite being exceptionally good at conning the common man, that they're doing it for the common man's best interests.

They're absolute lying scumbags.
 
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