As much crap as you like thread

[Ziggy]

We miss Boris don’t we?

That’s closer to the truth than most of us will admit. Parliament and the people in it have become more performative. A lot more style over substance, almost in some cases drifting into making it an offshoot of showbiz. Starmer reminds me of more of a European Christian Democrat, staid and serious, which is what day to day politics is like 90% of the time.
I would like a more left wing government. But that’s not going to happen for some time, if ever.

 

[speckyget]

That’s closer to the truth than most of us will admit. Parliament and the people in it have become more performative. A lot more style over substance, almost in some cases drifting into making it an offshoot of showbiz. Starmer reminds me of more of a European Christian Democrat, staid and serious, which is what day to day politics is like 90% of the time.
I would like a more left wing government. But that’s not going to happen for some time, if ever.

It's a fair point. If you've ever attended any Select Committee meetings, it's astonishing how civilised opposing MPs behave towards each other with the spotlights off.

 

[Scrote]

Keep telling yourself that.

There are loads of things Labour are doing to improve the lot of the normal working person in this country.

Anybody expecting overnight change is naive at best, or more likely agenda driven.

The state of this country after 14 years of right wing rule is like trying to turn a super tanker round, I mean look what they did to the NHS. If Sunak had got in then it would be heading towards an insurance based system by now, probably led by Elon Musk.

I've seen what they did to the NHS first-hand. Peter Thiel being given access to everyone's data - very high on my list of reasons for leaving.

What have Labour done to reverse any of that? Wes Streeting wants more privatisation and another round of gutting the NHS.

 

[HolgateCorner]

I've seen what they did to the NHS first-hand. Peter Thiel being given access to everyone's data - very high on my list of reasons for leaving.

What have Labour done to reverse any of that? Wes Streeting wants more privatisation and another round of gutting the NHS.

There is a big difference between outsourcing the services to make it more cost effective and turning it into a privately (probably USA) owned insurance based system.

The NHS is safe in Labour’s hands, it’s under stress as an entity under the Tories and in complete terminal danger if Reform ever manage to get near power.

 

[speckyget]

outsourcing the services to make it more cost effective

You absolutely sure about that?

 

[Scrote]

outsourcing the services to make it more cost effective

That's exactly what the Tories have been doing - it's just a convenient phrase that misses out the word "privatisation".

How can it be more effective to add layers of administration and cost?

The government can fund exactly the same services directly and miss out the profit-making middle-man. Where it's a case of the infrastructure not being available then FUND IT. Nothing I've seen from Streeting makes any mention of any of this being a temporary arrangement while more NHS staff are recruited and more beds/machines/facilities are made available.

I appreciate there's no Tory-style guff about "40 new hospitals" but what we need is an actual "40 new hospitals".

 

[speckyget]

That's exactly what the Tories have been doing - it's just a convenient phrase that misses out the word "privatisation".

Hate to be fair to Tories, but 'to be fair' PFI in healthcare was like crack to Gordon Brown.

 

[Trug]

There is a big difference between outsourcing the services to make it more cost effective and turning it into a privately (probably USA) owned insurance based system.

The NHS is safe in Labour’s hands, it’s under stress as an entity under the Tories and in complete terminal danger if Reform ever manage to get near power.

Labour introduced tuition fees as a CONTRIBUTION towards university education. This opened the doors for the Tories to charge full price for uni courses. I am afraid that the NHS will go the same way when the Tories get back in (and sooner or later they will do. )

 

[Trug]

Not necessarily. I was out of the country and did not get the chance to vote.

That is exactly what was wrong with the vote. British people living abroad could vote in a GE but not in the referendum.

 

[Wiseman_Vaughn]

That is exactly what was wrong with the vote. British people living abroad could vote in a GE but not in the referendum.

Yep. Me too. I wasn’t eligible. Some of my European colleagues couldn’t believe it

 

[HolgateCorner]

I don’t seem to be able to reply to individual posts so just a couple of points …

At risk of repeating myself outsourcing of services is massively different to the proper privatisation of the NHS which would mean the whole healthcare system becomes a privately owned profit making business, the opposite end of the spectrum compared to now.

I can’t tell whether the apparent confusion about that on here is genuine or not or just trying to spread the old notion that Labour are just the same as the Tories so you may as well vote Tory.

I think university tuition fees are different because not all of the population can or wants to benefit from university education and those that do usually benefit from higher earnings. I think it would be a hard sell to say that should all be paid by the tax payer. There are loads more university students now compared to when it was tax payer funded.

 

[Trug]

Over the last few months I have had reason to use the NHS. I can;t remember the names of the organisations that I was referred to but they were all in "partnership with the NHS". They were of course private organisations- private organisations exist for profit , nothing else. Don't get me wrong. I received excellent care from people who did not work for the NHS. This worries me (not the care but the fact they did not work for the NHS) so our tax money is going to private companies and share holders)

 

[SuperStu]

I can’t tell whether the apparent confusion about that on here is genuine or not or just trying to spread the old notion that Labour are just the same as the Tories so you may as well vote Tory.

I don't think anyone on here is suggesting the last part.

For me it's that you/others defending what Labour are doing with the NHS sound a bit naive. Just outsourcing a couple of services, just doing whats cost effective, just temporary, just until the waiting lists are down, just just just.

Suppose Scrote's correct, and outsourcing services to private entities turns out not to be more cost effective, and it actually ends up being more expensive. And suppose the tories do get back in at some point - not unlikely, it's what they've done for hundreds of years at this point - doesn't that just play into their usual modus operandi? Deliberately making services deliver less for more expense, so they can make their case for privatisation?

Why's it such a problem for some of us to want Labour to be different to this? To push the needle back in the other direction?

 

[Scrote]

At risk of repeating myself outsourcing of services is massively different to the proper privatisation of the NHS

No it isn't, not really. The best analogy (and all analogies have problems, I know) is to think of the NHS like a luxury airliner.

If you sell off an engine or two it'll still fly. If you sell off a wheel or two it'll still land. If you sell off a dozen seats or so you can still service passengers. If you sell off a co-pilot/navigator you can still reach your destination etc.

The problem is you're then left with a lot less you can get rid of in the future. Sell off a few windows and you can still fly - just not as high and not as fast. Sell off a few lights and you're massively increasing the risk of an accident.

Anyone complaining can be taken to the airport and shown the airplane. It still exists and it still function - nothing wrong with it...

Every cut and every 'outsourcing' removes a chunk of the whole and reduces the effectiveness of the organisation. At some point the plane will crash. At some point the NHS won't be fit for purpose. What do you think will happen then?

I can’t tell whether the apparent confusion about that on here is genuine or not or just trying to spread the old notion that Labour are just the same as the Tories so you may as well vote Tory

I don't want anyone to vote Tory (or Reform (or even Lib Dem etc.)). I want Labour to do what Labour are 'supposed' to do.

Hate to be fair to Tories, but 'to be fair' PFI in healthcare was like crack to Gordon Brown.

Good point. The problem with Blair/Brown was that - like Starmer - they weren't prepared to go against the prevailing Tory narratives so put workarounds in place. None of which stand up to scrutiny and all of which were disputed at the time. PFI was a travesty but it kept the right-wing media (and their owners) onside. That was more important to Blair's vision.

 

[HolgateCorner]

I don't think anyone on here is suggesting the last part.

For me it's that you/others defending what Labour are doing with the NHS sound a bit naive. Just outsourcing a couple of services, just doing whats cost effective, just temporary, just until the waiting lists are down, just just just.

Suppose Scrote's correct, and outsourcing services to private entities turns out not to be more cost effective, and it actually ends up being more expensive. And suppose the tories do get back in at some point - not unlikely, it's what they've done for hundreds of years at this point - doesn't that just play into their usual modus operandi? Deliberately making services deliver less for more expense, so they can make their case for privatisation?

Why's it such a problem for some of us to want Labour to be different to this? To push the needle back in the other direction?

No I do understand that Superstu.

The problem any socialist (Labour or other) has in the capitalist world that the UK is part of is that anything anybody does these days is subject as we all know to ‘business case’ or ‘investment model’ - the accountants and bean counters have their dirty hands on the purse strings.

They just say prove that you are getting value for money direct employed v sub-contract and its end of argument because it’s very difficult to prove a directly employed service provider is efficient.

I have a few right wing friends who these days complain that hospitals employ far too many people and could be better organised (despite them personally receiving first rate medical care), that’s the right wingers mantra just now because they know most people want the NHS to survive.

This is what Labour are up against and if outsourcing some of the services helps the efficiency argument to ensure the NHS survives and we avoid an insurance based privately owned system then that is a price worth paying in my opinion.

 

[SuperStu]

I have a few right wing friends who these days complain that hospitals employ far too many people and could be better organised (despite them personally receiving first rate medical care), that’s the right wingers mantra just now because they know most people want the NHS to survive.

This is what Labour are up against and if outsourcing some of the services helps the efficiency argument to ensure the NHS survives and we avoid an insurance based privately owned system then that is a price worth paying in my opinion.

I don't follow your logic there. There's multiple steps missing.

Step 1: outsource parts of the NHS
Step 2: ???
Step 3: somehow step 2 means that outsourcing costs less than in-house even though there's a profit being extracted now.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: somehow your right wing friends visit a hospital, are immediately able to tell which staff are in-house vs which are part of the outsourcing, perceive it as fewer staff overall, and are so impressed by this that they vote Labour next time round?

It just doesn't make sense?

 

[HolgateCorner]

I don't follow your logic there. There's multiple steps missing.

Step 1: outsource parts of the NHS
Step 2: ???
Step 3: somehow step 2 means that outsourcing costs less than in-house even though there's a profit being extracted now.
Step 4: ???
Step 5: somehow your right wing friends visit a hospital, are immediately able to tell which staff are in-house vs which are part of the outsourcing, perceive it as fewer staff overall, and are so impressed by this that they vote Labour next time round?

It just doesn't make sense?

Hi Superstu

Sorry if you don’t follow.

I think it’s a matter of opinion whether outsourcing is more efficient or lower cost than directly employing staff but it’s very difficult to prove the efficiency of insourcing even allowing for a profit margin. Where is the incentive to be efficient?

With regard to my right wing friends there is no chance they will ever vote Labour but it is still worth listening to the arguments that are being pedalled in the right and far right wing circles.

I think Farage will be open at the next election about a switch to a privately owned insurance based health system in return for big tax cuts at the lower end.

Labour need to do everything they can to make the NHS good value for money.

 

[Laughing]

Labour have to outsource services in the NHS to get lists down. It was in their manifesto.

You can't throw money at the NHS borrowing or otherwise and magic doctors and nurses out of thin air. That's a longer term project.

 

[JackG]

Labour have to outsource services in the NHS to get lists down. It was in their manifesto.

You can't throw money at the NHS borrowing or otherwise and magic doctors and nurses out of thin air. That's a longer term project.

We usually magic medical staff out of poorer countries who can ill afford to lose them.

 

[Andy_W]

I wish I shared your optimism.

Optimism about what, the tide changing?

In that case I think It's just time, these things are baked in I think, they will just take a long time to play out. Same as things like the baby boom from the 60's or whatever and the crazy low birth rate now, these take lifetimes to work their way through.

Millennials and especially those younger grew up in a different and more interconnected world, and have spent their entire lives in it (they don't know otherwise), that can't not have an impact. It's easier to see as a millennial I think as you're right in the middle of it and most of your friends are millennials. The generations either side to me seem worlds apart. I can even see it in my own parents and some others parents, it's like some moved with the times and some didn't.

Not much of what Farage or Tories say will get through to them, as there is far too much they're actually living, telling them otherwise. It's difficult to see though, as younger generations don't vote, but they will vote more as they get older, it's a certainty. The same as death is a certainty, and where those votes were going.

I know loads of millennials who are paid exceptionally well, and not many of them vote tory at all, they actively despise them, and hate Farage even more. This wasn't happening much with previous generations.

I know loads who have also gone from voting left, to voting lib dem (who sided with Tories) or to even voting for the tories, but are now voting left with more conviction than they ever have, this is very much against the norm of previous generations.