BoroMart
Well-known member
exactly, all due to some arbitrary boundaries controlled by the two largest parties, and largely the Tory Party, to gerrymander the status quo
Bercow defects to Labour - Did not see that coming
- Thread starter ThePrisoner
- Start date
NYboro
Well-known member
Historically, Labour were more than happy to prop it up. I suspect they might be changing their minds now.
Cosmonaut
Well-known member
Just watched Bercow's interview on Sky News about his defection to Labour.
Always thought the guy is wonderfully articulate without being condescending. I find it difficult to disagree with any point he has made in his explanation of why he now considers himself 'left of center' and his reasoning for opposing everything the Conservative party appears to now stand for. He is particularly spot on about the conduct in general of Johnson's leadership and respect of Parliamentary conduct in general within his cabinet as a whole.
No one seems to give a sh1t how politicians behave now, as long as they get what they voted for. I was thoroughly against a second Brexit referendum etc but sadly I think the public, in general, was taken the p1ss out of by this current bunch and sold a pack of lies. The public got Brexit and that's all that mattered. Ever since for some reason, that means elected officials are given carte blanche to behave as they please without consequence. We were also given plenty of examples of the competence of Johnson's cabinet, the other week.
Despite the general opinion on Dominic Cummings character, I believe everything he said when he was in front of the committee to explain events leading up to his resignation and experience when among leaders within the Cabinet. And then ... tumbleweed afterward. Quite unreal.
I can't see any credible opposition convincing the general public to vote otherwise forming any time in the near future. Johnson and co. are here to stay for a long time, quite a terrifying thought.
I'd have liked it if the likes of Andy Burnham could have led the Labour Party right now. Perhaps he and Bercow can team up one day and run for a couple of seats and we might see a real opposition starting to form to take the Tories down.
Always thought the guy is wonderfully articulate without being condescending. I find it difficult to disagree with any point he has made in his explanation of why he now considers himself 'left of center' and his reasoning for opposing everything the Conservative party appears to now stand for. He is particularly spot on about the conduct in general of Johnson's leadership and respect of Parliamentary conduct in general within his cabinet as a whole.
No one seems to give a sh1t how politicians behave now, as long as they get what they voted for. I was thoroughly against a second Brexit referendum etc but sadly I think the public, in general, was taken the p1ss out of by this current bunch and sold a pack of lies. The public got Brexit and that's all that mattered. Ever since for some reason, that means elected officials are given carte blanche to behave as they please without consequence. We were also given plenty of examples of the competence of Johnson's cabinet, the other week.
Despite the general opinion on Dominic Cummings character, I believe everything he said when he was in front of the committee to explain events leading up to his resignation and experience when among leaders within the Cabinet. And then ... tumbleweed afterward. Quite unreal.
I can't see any credible opposition convincing the general public to vote otherwise forming any time in the near future. Johnson and co. are here to stay for a long time, quite a terrifying thought.
I'd have liked it if the likes of Andy Burnham could have led the Labour Party right now. Perhaps he and Bercow can team up one day and run for a couple of seats and we might see a real opposition starting to form to take the Tories down.
BoroMart
Well-known member
They were, and they might, my point was that because the Tories have been in power more, they have been in power more often and therefore had more opportunity to take advantage of it. So not only does it largely preclude third parties from having representation, but it also provides more advantage to the most succesful party.
Muttley
Well-known member
The problem seems to be people don't care. I don't think Starmer has done too much wrong. I think it would have been difficult to be seen as opposing the Government during a national crisis so to an extent you have to give them enough rope. If people don't care about the lies, the corruption or the incompetence it is difficult to see what difference a different leader would make?
I think the best thing might be for Labour and Liberal and Green (perhaps even SNP and NI parties) to come together in an electoral pact to get rid of the Tories on a platform of electoral reform. This would mean the Labour Party acknowledging that they cannot win on their own but that the Tories must be removed for the sake of democracy.
I think the best thing might be for Labour and Liberal and Green (perhaps even SNP and NI parties) to come together in an electoral pact to get rid of the Tories on a platform of electoral reform. This would mean the Labour Party acknowledging that they cannot win on their own but that the Tories must be removed for the sake of democracy.
Laughing
Well-known member
I did read something quite recently that Labour may be leaning towards PR but I am not sure I buy that. In any case most of the electorate would prefer PR, I would assume but whichever party is in power got there under the current system so probably don't have much of an apatite to change it, mores the pity.
Muttley
Well-known member
I've just seen this You Gov survey on Twitter
Question asked, "Who thinks Brexit has been going well this year?"
Con voters - 51%
Leave voters - 45%
British public - 25%
Remain voters - 8%
Lab voters - 5%
Which is just gobsmacking when Conservative voters believe it's "going well" when most Leave voters don't (and of course that means among non-Tory leave voters the %age must be almost nil). Stockholm Syndrome I guess?
So, this is Starmer’s conundrum, do you...
A. Point out the mess, get accused of ‘opposing’ or trying subvert Brexit
or
B. Stay silent, get accused of complicity in the mess.
Not sure how you square this circle?
Question asked, "Who thinks Brexit has been going well this year?"
Con voters - 51%
Leave voters - 45%
British public - 25%
Remain voters - 8%
Lab voters - 5%
Which is just gobsmacking when Conservative voters believe it's "going well" when most Leave voters don't (and of course that means among non-Tory leave voters the %age must be almost nil). Stockholm Syndrome I guess?
So, this is Starmer’s conundrum, do you...
A. Point out the mess, get accused of ‘opposing’ or trying subvert Brexit
or
B. Stay silent, get accused of complicity in the mess.
Not sure how you square this circle?
bear66
Well-known member
If there were true representation in Parliament, instead of the Tories having 56% of the seats, they'd have 43% of the seats (there are 7 other seats that make up all the minor parties).
| Party | Actual seats | Seats if represented by number of votes | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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The effects of some unholy alliances happened in Sweden this morning. The coalition that literally took months to put together after the last election fell apart on a vote of no confidence in the PM. Stefan Löfven who is trying to pass a bill to deregulate the rental housing market. Tried to sell a promise, that actually wasn’t to the Left Party, who saw through it and called the vote.
He now has a week to put together another government or it’s another election. He may even do the unthinkable of the Social Democrats doing a deal with right wing Swedish Democrats, or Nazis as my Swedish friend calls them. Although the coalition did last longer than most people expected, according to my Swedish mate. Real life Borgen stuff going on
He now has a week to put together another government or it’s another election. He may even do the unthinkable of the Social Democrats doing a deal with right wing Swedish Democrats, or Nazis as my Swedish friend calls them. Although the coalition did last longer than most people expected, according to my Swedish mate. Real life Borgen stuff going on
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
Personally I’d be tempted to frame it as ‘Labour wants the Brexit that was promised and that voters wanted and the Conservative party needs to deliver’ and then hammer them with every failure day in, day out.
Muttley
Well-known member
Which sounds great until you try to define what was promised, because it seems to me that many Brexiters heard different promises all of which were said at one point or another. Even Farridge opined that "we should be like Norway" (not in EU but in Single Market and Customs Union - though he probably would have passed on Schengen) not that it appeared on the side of a bus or anything official.
Adi_Dem
Well-known member
I think that’s a huge advantage though. It can mean anything and so you can hang them by their own petard.
Cosmonaut
Well-known member
That is true if there was ever a possibility in the future for Labour to come into power again. They would need a coalition of some form, to begin with, ie; when Cameron got in with the Dems.
Such state things are though, in terms of 'the red wall' coming down, etc, even the possibility of a coalition Govt to oust the Tories seems a million miles away in this current time. The Tories have absolutely swept up and with the amount of work it is going to take to win seats back, I just don't see the required urgency in opposition to start making progress. It is in a state of limbo.
I know we have been disrupted by pandemic issues and can appreciate that, but at the same time, I can't help but think constant opportunities have been missed to progress or convince the general public there's another way to go. We are in the early stages of Brexit and as long as Starmer is portrayed by the state media as the Remainer who will try to realign us with the EU again if he was to become PM, he has absolutely no chance as it stands of gaining in the polls, etc. The tabloid media is generally pro-Brexit and they can churn out as much guff as they want to keep Starmer right where he is. People gobble it up day after day. It is going to be a good old while before that changes.
.. when Dennis Skinner lost his seat in Bolsover, that was the moment for me when it really underlined how serious it is, how much the country has swayed and bought into the Boris brand. Generally, sold a pack of lies. Somehow, the Tories' popularity has soared in the countries poorest areas and left Labour in the dust. There's a serious amount of work to do. Most people point the finger at Jeremy Corbyn and Diane Abbott. Apparently, it is their fault, but the truth is, it's much more complicated than that, to tell the truth.
I do agree that Starmer can't be blamed for too much considering the past year or so's events. The one thing that frustrates me about Sir Keir so far though, is I think he took his 'working with the Govt' approach he started with too far. During the likes of PMQs when he has had open goal after open goal to really take it to Johnson and co, f*ck all happens and all you're left thinking is when is Starmer going to hire a new strategist?
There doesn't seem to be any fire in his belly. When he was elected leader I expected him to nail Johnson and put the party back onto a good path, but it's been lousy at best. He's had enough time now to convince folk he was the right choice and my confidence in him is dwindling by the day.
I think Boris can put his feet up for the next few years at least.
NZBoro1
Well-known member
We seem to do OK over here with PR, although probably have a slightly different system to most countries.
During the vote for the election, you get x2 votes, one for who will represent your district, and secondly a party vote.
The party votes get added together across the country, and then each party gets given an extra number of seats depending on how many party votes they got (these are called list MP's, they don't have a constituency, but represent their party in Parliament).
elections.nz
During the vote for the election, you get x2 votes, one for who will represent your district, and secondly a party vote.
The party votes get added together across the country, and then each party gets given an extra number of seats depending on how many party votes they got (these are called list MP's, they don't have a constituency, but represent their party in Parliament).
What is MMP?
MMP is the voting system we use in New Zealand. Each person gets a vote for a candidate and a vote for a party.
Abel Tasman
Well-known member
Think we do have a decent PR system. It gives the minority parties like the Maori party a few seats and I think that is a good thing. That said the difference between the two main parties here (The National Party and the Labour Party) isn't that wide anyway.We seem to do OK over here with PR, although probably have a slightly different system to most countries.
During the vote for the election, you get x2 votes, one for who will represent your district, and secondly a party vote.
The party votes get added together across the country, and then each party gets given an extra number of seats depending on how many party votes they got (these are called list MP's, they don't have a constituency, but represent their party in Parliament).
What is MMP?
MMP is the voting system we use in New Zealand. Each person gets a vote for a candidate and a vote for a party.
NZBoro1
Well-known member
Thats true. Our National (Conservative) party is seen as to the left of the democrats by our US cousins.
indeedido
Well-known member
I disagree with the assessment that we have a terrible system, that can only be saved by your proposals.
I believe there has been a "perfect storm" of events with Trump, Brexit and Covid and it has resulted in unprecedented times.
I like having parliamentary constituencies and voting for somebody, not just a party. I don't like the purest forms of STV at all, with large blocks of multiple representatives.
Two/Three party politics has proved a pretty good way to get self correcting Government in this country, as the next election can and often does bring "justice" to a malfunctioning/unpopular regime.
Factions within parties usually mean that it is rare that there is not opposition to the Government from within its own party. It needs strong leadership of other parties and particularly the opposition to apply appropriate checks to the government. The more fractious the opposition factions the less chance the Government will be checked. Governments with strong overall majorities are still usually kept in check. If not then they will be hoofed out.
There were 345 Conservative MP's returned in England. Only 70 did not get over 50% of the vote in their constituency. Of the 70, 56 of them got over 45% of the vote.
There were 14 Welsh Conservative MP's returned, 6 of them got over 50%. Of the 8 remaining, 4 of them got over 45%.
In Scotland, there were just 6 Conservatives, 1 got over 50%, 3 more got over 45%.
In total, 365 elected, 282 of them got over 50%, with 63 more getting over 45%.
Only 20 Conservative MP's got below 45% of the vote in their constituency.
You really do have to wonder who could think that a Conservative majority as small as 80 is such a problem, or so unreflective of a clear win?
If we look to Scotland, the most exaggerated picture emerges and much more in keeping with the thoughts of some of the critics of FPTP. Scotland and Wales are both over-represented in Parliament versus England. They simply have fewer people per constituency.
A greater proportion of England 47.3% voted Conservative, than the 45.0% of Scots that voted SNP.
Yet SNP got 81.3% of the inflated Scottish seats, compared to 64.7% of Conservative English seats.
Similarly, a look at localised areas like Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham and much of London, see only Labour MP's with a view that any other vote is effectively dead.
The problem is not the electoral system and FPTP, the problem is what has happened at this point in time. It is how Johnson is Governing and is being shambolically opposed. Johnson will get his, either from his own, or by the electorate at the next show and even with an 80 majority he still can't do what he likes/others fear. Look at the by election win for the LD's, a real wake up call as if he didn't already need one.
The vote in 2019 was strongly impacted by Brexit. It still did not produce a ridiculous majority. The Government will be held to account at the next election. The British public will not all forget the Covid mistakes and corruption and the style of "leadership". We could do with more aligned and more critical opposition. Things will correct again.
There are much bigger electoral injustices in Scotland than there are for the UK re a need for PR.
Their alternative to the traditional 2/3 perties, has simply just got their act commendably together, to get the power they have.
I do agree with one point you make and that is the benefit of having a slimmed down and elected Second Chamber. Maybe the opportunity to have a PR system as with Aus and others for this house.
I'd also have slimmed down HoC, with fewer, much better paid/resourced, completely dedicated to the job MP's who have to declare everything.
bear66
Well-known member
Totally agree about Scotland. As my table above showed, the SNP should only have 25 seats. Do the Green voters only 'deserve' one seat when a fair and true representation would be 18?
We don't elect a government, we elect representatives. FPTP fails us.
Every vote should count so there are no 'winners' and 'losers', just a fair reflection of everyone in this country.
You have your opinion, and I have mine. Of course, other opinions are also available.