Can you admit that Southgate is doing a great job yet?

I tried to make a similar point myself earlier. The criticism of Southgate doesn't come from a place of wishing ill of the team or the manager. It's more an attempt to examine why we didn't progress or win in the last two tournaments (as good as it was we got as far as it did in the first place), and to express concerns prior to what's going to be a really tough knockout stage.

As for measures of greatness, I won't personally be attending any open bus parade/airport greeting unless we win the thing- in which case I'll be 10 cans deep with the flag on my face.

COME ON ENGLAND!
 
But it seems like the 'pro Southgate' lobby (shall we call it that?) can't accept that people have different opinions and are trying their hardest to convert the others.
It's called debate mate, you can equally argue the anti-southgate lobby can't accept that people have different opinions and are trying their hardest to convert others.

We've simply put the facts on the table about his successes, and where it has been highlighted we have a 'talented squad', we have qualified that it's nowhere near the most talented but has still outperformed others.
 
It's called debate mate, you can equally argue the anti-southgate lobby can't accept that people have different opinions and are trying their hardest to convert others.

We've simply put the facts on the table about his successes, and where it has been highlighted we have a 'talented squad', we have qualified that it's nowhere near the most talented but has still outperformed others.

Debate isn't really asking me if I will give credit or not. Or branding people uncultured, brainwashed by GBeebies etc.

I love Gareth Southgate. Great man, great captain, successful England manager. But in my opinion we have a bit of a flaw when it comes from scoring goals in open play against the 'better teams'. It happened in the Euros but we scored enough set pieces to make up for it and carried some luck (as all winning sides tend to do). I think that this was early to blame for our disappointing Home Nations campaign.

Most of the points posted in this thread regarding England I agree with, it just feels like it's a barrage. You are passionate Mart, I get it, some of us share your passion but maybe not your conviction (y)
 
Debate isn't really asking me if I will give credit or not. Or branding people uncultured, brainwashed by GBeebies etc.
Has anyone personally branded you any of those things? I stand by that the general british football fan is more interested in players that work hard than players that play smart, it's a badge of pride with many people ("as long as he puts the effort in").

I also stand by that GBeebies have ran a campaign against Southgate since his stance on racism and they ran that campaign because PR works.

None of that was directly at you though.

But in my opinion we have a bit of a flaw when it comes from scoring goals in open play against the 'better teams'.
There is some truth to that, but that applies to most teams, Spain struggle for goals against good sides, Belgium got 3 open play goals in 3 games against good sides at the euros. Top teams don't tend to score heavily against other top teams, and pens and freekicks become more important as sides nullify themselves.
 
There is some truth to that, but that applies to most teams, Spain struggle for goals against good sides, Belgium got 3 open play goals in 3 games against good sides at the euros. Top teams don't tend to score heavily against other top teams, and pens and freekicks become more important as sides nullify themselves.

Yeah, and it probably has a lot to so with the opposition being better (obviously lol). It just worries me and that's why I don't tend to get carried away too much when we hammered Iran & Wales. I think Senegal will be a better challenge but I hope we see them off well and carry some momentum into the France game.
 
But in my opinion we have a bit of a flaw when it comes from scoring goals in open play against the 'better teams'. It happened in the Euros but we scored enough set pieces to make up for it and carried some luck (as all winning sides tend to do).

Is this not really a problem for every team in the world?

Italy scored 6 goals in their 4 knock out games in the Euros, which was effectively 5 full matches as they had 3 sets of extra time.
France were relatively spectacular in Russia: 11 in 4, but that still included a couple of matches where they had to grit out narrow wins vs Belgium and Uruguay. These matches included set piece goals and goalkeeping errors.
Generally, no one makes it look easy in the latter stages, which is of course the great beauty of football: it's difficult to score a goal. I know occasionally there are exceptions (Brazil vs Germany springs to mind), but those never happen without deep flaws on the losing side, as well as good play by the victors.
 
Yeah, and it probably has a lot to so with the opposition being better (obviously lol). It just worries me and that's why I don't tend to get carried away too much when we hammered Iran & Wales. I think Senegal will be a better challenge but I hope we see them off well and carry some momentum into the France game.
Yeah people do get carried away, we're a good team, we can beat anyone, but we have flaws, I think we have incredibly average defensive choices as a team, and therefore a team like Senegal can punish us. I'd be much more bullish about our team if we had a 28 year old Rio and Ashley Cole in our side or a world class ball carrier in CM like prime Gazza. But we go with what we have and hope we can squeeze enough out of them to go deep into the competition
 
Nothing had changed yet. Southgate has got England beating the teams we should beat. We're not losing banana skin matches. We have yet to beat a decent team in a knockout. We haven't won a match where we weren't favourite in a competition. We had the easiest run to the SF in 2018 where we were beaten by a good but not great Croatia team. All the good teams were in the other half of the draw. We had a home Euros and player nobody good until the final where we were beaten.

The QF will be Southgate's chance to prove he can win a match against a better team. Personally, I think he is scared against better teams. He won't attack for fear of being beaten but our attack is our strength. We're poor at the back so he overloads midfield and defence against a dangerous side. He has Kane doing deep which means no outlet, nothing sticks and the opposition gets unlimited tries until they break us down. He would be better using our strength and taking the game to the opposition. We might not win them all. We could even get hammered but if we win one, and it's a final then it's worth it and it's better than always limply falling to defeat. Even if it's not a final, it might give the players the confidence to know they can beat the better teams. If we attacked and beat France then what would be left to fear?
Didn’t we beat Spain in the nations league?
 
Is it just me that feels this is utter pomposity.
you've just given a great example of intellectual cowardice, deflecting from the point with insults. I've had two interactions with the guy, both times he has been abusive then flounced off, I can't be responsible for that. He could debate like an adult, he could accept he was utterly wrong to accuse me of "vile comments" about him when I had never said a single word to him ever. But no he threw out an accusation, doubled down on it then flounced off, it isn't 'pomposity' to say that is cowardly behaviour.
 
Didn’t we beat Spain in the nations league?
3-2 away from home, it's a good example that we can score against the best sides. We lost 2-1 at home to them, but again we scored. We also scored against and beat Croatia in that same nations league campaign. We did have an absolute stinker in the last nations league, for balance.
 
Is this not really a problem for every team in the world?

Italy scored 6 goals in their 4 knock out games in the Euros, which was effectively 5 full matches as they had 3 sets of extra time.
France were relatively spectacular in Russia: 11 in 4, but that still included a couple of matches where they had to grit out narrow wins vs Belgium and Uruguay. These matches included set piece goals and goalkeeping errors.
Generally, no one makes it look easy in the latter stages, which is of course the great beauty of football: it's difficult to score a goal. I know occasionally there are exceptions (Brazil vs Germany springs to mind), but those never happen without deep flaws on the losing side, as well as good play by the victors.

Yes it probably is. But I don't watch all the other sides, I just watch England (apart from the WC). As such it was more evident to me that England have this problem. Maybe it is because we approach these things with a defensive mindset - maybe other teams do as well.
 
This thread is all about OPINIONS. Some people are of the opinion that Southgate isn't the greatest England manager of modern times. Other people have the opinion that he is.

That, in itself, is fine.

But it seems like the 'pro Southgate' lobby (shall we call it that?) can't accept that people have different opinions and are trying their hardest to convert the others.

Come on lads, we can all have different opinions. Not sure it needs 12 pages. Ultimately we all want England to win and do well so I don't know what the problem really is?

You see I don't mind a moderate opinion, or constructive criticism. I disagree with many decisions Southgate makes, if he plays Sterling on Sunday for instance I'll be very disappointed.
But what I'm reacting to is the massive overreaction when we have a disappointing performance, as all teams do, or the grudgingly faint praise and attempts to undermine when we do better than any other England team of my lifetime.
We quite possibly wont win this tournament, but I can guarantee you it will be better than the 4 or 5 tournaments before GS took over, and possibly better than any for decades.
 
you've just given a great example of intellectual cowardice, deflecting from the point with insults. I've had two interactions with the guy, both times he has been abusive then flounced off, I can't be responsible for that. He could debate like an adult, he could accept he was utterly wrong to accuse me of "vile comments" about him when I had never said a single word to him ever. But no he threw out an accusation, doubled down on it then flounced off, it isn't 'pomposity' to say that is cowardly behaviour.
For the record, I haven't flounced anywhere, ever - and certainly not from you.
We've never met, so not spoken, but you have posted plenty at me. I don't much care about that either, but your response above is typical.
You post endlessly on threads, ramming your opinions down throats and repeating the same things over and over again, generalising what other posters think because of what they may have posted on other subjects.
Your apparent need to make socio political points all the time is just not required and derails some good threads.
I am not in doubt that you study things you are interested in, but then you seem to assume that gives you superiority and enables you to talk down to other posters who have the temerity to disagree, throwing out vacuous phrases like "intellectual cowardice". You seem to have to be "right" and have the last word.
Ironically I agree with a lot of your opinions and at least the sentiment.
 
You see I don't mind a moderate opinion, or constructive criticism. I disagree with many decisions Southgate makes, if he plays Sterling on Sunday for instance I'll be very disappointed.
But what I'm reacting to is the massive overreaction when we have a disappointing performance, as all teams do, or the grudgingly faint praise and attempts to undermine when we do better than any other England team of my lifetime.
We quite possibly wont win this tournament, but I can guarantee you it will be better than the 4 or 5 tournaments before GS took over, and possibly better than any for decades.

I'm not sure it's an un-moderate opinion that Iran and Wales are pub teams though! You didn't seem to like that and jumped on me! Anyway.... ;)
 
Yes it probably is. But I don't watch all the other sides, I just watch England (apart from the WC). As such it was more evident to me that England have this problem. Maybe it is because we approach these things with a defensive mindset - maybe other teams do as well.

My dad's favourite comment is watching England is just like watching Boro.

I think it's just the standard frustration we all feel when watching football. Scoring goals is always difficult; we love the game because of those explosions of joy we feel on the rare occasions that we score.
 
Without reading the previous 12 pages ill pop my two cents in:

Southgate from day 1 was unpopular with most fans. Most fans seem to think the England job can only go to a well-known and successful domestic manager. The fact that Southgate's only well-known role was getting relegated with us was never going to make him a popular choice. However, like all managers, judgement should have been reserved until we started to see games and the outcomes.

The facts are simple, Southgate has taken us to three major tournaments - two world cups and one European championships. In the latter he has produced our best ever result as runners up. In the World Cup he got our joint second-best performance in reaching the Semi Final, not done since 1990. Yet, throughout all of this the excuses have been thrown at him, the draw was easy, you still did not win anything - Both true, however we can only play what is in front of us. Perhaps if some of the so called big teams he avoided performed as they should our path would not have been as straight forward.

Coupled with the above you have the belief that this is one of the best crop of youngsters we have had in a long time and so many of them are attacking players so we should play them all and blow every team away - Except, how do you play them all? In the Euro's everybody cried for Grealish, this time its Foden's turn. The reality is the performance does not change that much regardless of the personal, the positive is we can replace with players just as good and we often then see real impact when the changes are made.

We have all seen the so called 'Golden Generation' fail to deliver. Despite the fact they had no team spirit or even liked each other that much, we had an arrogance back then in major tournaments where we believed the 442, fast pace of the Premier League (best league in the world dont you know) would win us something. In reality by the 60th minute we where blowing out of our backsides and getting beat of much better technical players even if there names didn't suit.

Southgate is the first England manager in my life time that is treating tournament football how it should be treated. Dull at times, of course but what nation isnt it. But its productive and it works. I cant remember ever being so comfortable in a group stage and not being the slightest bit nervous, i have never had that in the past.

His selection and subs have been questioned and sometimes justified but he has also got a number of selections correct.

I am sick of hearing so called experts pull him apart for not playing this player, playing two holders etc. Jamie O'Hara on talksport saying he would rather get eliminated and be excited in a game than this are pathetic.

So far Southgate has passed his first task, getting through the groups. The USA game helped us realise that Rice and Bellingham as a two will not be enough in the knockouts, so he changed it. Foden and Rashford have taken their chance - despite a fairly average first half, Southgate swapped them over and it was much better. We have also scored 9 goals (more than anyone else for the most defensive and negative side ever) and Kane hasn't got one yet.

Do i think we will win the World Cup? Absolutely not but Southgate has got us a to a level we have all dreamed off since Euro 96 and we finally play like an international team should. He won't be there forever so get behind him, enjoy it and be happy that England are a contender again.
 
I'm not sure it's an un-moderate opinion that Iran and Wales are pub teams though! You didn't seem to like that and jumped on me! Anyway.... ;)
no on e would argue that they haven't done well, but they're no pub team, int eh last 18 months they pushed Netherlands all the way twice, drew twice with Belgium, won away to turkey, they're no pub team, but its pretty obvious their best players are on a steep decline.

Iran topped a qualifying group above South Korea, and I doubt anyone would class them a pub team. they drew away to Senegal in September and some people think Senegal will beat England. We made them look like a pub team, admittedly, but they beat Wales and ran USA close.

Neither are great teams, but neither are awful either. Wales on the downward spiral to mediocre, Iran a bit naive but a committed and organised outfit that's improving.
 
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