Cummings on Sage WTF!!!

FatCat said:
I get that but you wouldhave to assume that they are actively involved and making decisions not just observers, either way it’s not ideal but I’m not so sure it’s as dramatic as people are making out on here.
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We'll find out when the minutes of SAGE are made public. Hopefully we don't have to wait till the public inquiry to see them.
 
FatCat said:
I get that but you wouldhave to assume that they are actively involved and making decisions not just observers, either way it’s not ideal but I’m not so sure it’s as dramatic as people are making out on here.
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I disagree because if they have had an influence on the science and that has affected policy then they may have contributed to the deaths of thousands of people.

It’s rank bad leadership by Johnson, either way, to allow them to attend regardless of their involvement as it undermines the whole basis of the independence of SAGE’s findings and the key role they had on determining policy, the mantra of ‘we follow the science’ has a different ring to it when you consider that Cummings has potentially steered it.
 
American_Mary said:
I disagree because if they have had an influence on the science and that has affected policy then they may have contributed to the deaths of thousands of people.

It’s rank bad leadership by Johnson, either way, to allow them to attend regardless of their involvement as it undermines the whole basis of the independence of SAGE’s findings and the key role they had on determining policy, the mantra of ‘we follow the science’ has a different ring to it when you consider that Cummings has potentially steered it.
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There’s a few ifs and maybes in your post - if proven I agree with you but for now there is no proof they had an influence on the science and subsequent policy.

It would be interesting to see the minutes from the meetings and see in what capacity they were attending.

would also be interesting to know if this is normal i.e. have previous meetings where sage has sat involved political figures or just scientists.
 
FatCat said:
There’s a few ifs and maybes in your post - if proven I agree with you but for now there is no proof they had an influence on the science and subsequent policy.

It would be interesting to see the minutes from the meetings and see in what capacity they were attending.

would also be interesting to know if this is normal i.e. have previous meetings where sage has sat involved political figures or just scientists.
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True and that’s why I’m saying potentially however they should not have been there in any capacity given their positions within the government and the remit of SAGE, even if they had no input their attendance gives the wrong perception in my opinion, simple observance of protocol and this isn’t a situation.

As far as I’m aware there has never been any political attendee at any SAGE meeting previously as the idea is for the scientific experts to reach a quorum of agreement based on their fields of expertise, they then present that to the government who then decide on the best course of action, it has always been seen as independent free of government influence.
 
Here is a direct quote from an extensive Sunday Times article some time ago...

"The prime minister’s top adviser, Dominic Cummings, is said to have had initial enthusiasm for the herd immunity concept, which may have played a part in the government’s early approach to managing the virus. The Department of Health firmly denies that “herd immunity” was ever its aim and rejects suggestions that Whitty supported it. Cummings also denies backing the concept."

I have attached a full copy of the article with this paragraph in bold text.

Here is the title of the article:

Coronavirus: 38 days when Britain sleepwalked into disaster

UPDATED: I know that the spin doctors tried to do a "recovery job" on the situation that followed the publication of this article. It was a standard deflection and shaggy defence. That has been blown apart by Cummings attending these meetings.
 

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FatCat said:
There’s a few ifs and maybes in your post - if proven I agree with you but for now there is no proof they had an influence on the science and subsequent policy.

It would be interesting to see the minutes from the meetings and see in what capacity they were attending.

would also be interesting to know if this is normal i.e. have previous meetings where sage has sat involved political figures or just scientists.
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A former Chief Scientific Officer said never when he attended them and David Lidington said he wasn't aware of advisers attending whilst May was PM.

Apparently, the individual CMOs of each of the devolved countries are allowed to listen in as observers. Unlike Cummings and Warner, they are NOT allowed to ask questions but can provide written questions in advance.
 
br14 said:
It's just possible that Cummings is there to provide input on available research funding and how the government could help SAGE members obtain private lab support or other government assistance. Cummings has access to data science - again it's just possible modelers etc might find that useful (especially older modelers).

I would imagine a group of highly experienced PhD's and research scientists could fend off the odd political adviser with a few well chosen technical terms.

There's so much you could be complaining about - for example the incredibly stupid policies toward care homes - rather than this piffling item.
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br14 I think the reason folks are complaining about this is because it goes to the heart of the governments response to the pandemic and raises questions about the "following the science" statements that we keep hearing. If, and I don't know, the government are influencing medical advice at it's source it says something rather evil about the regime.
 
Is Dominic Cummings the equivalent of a political commissar in the Soviet Army of 1941 - their army was full of them at the time of the German invasion. They were not employed for their fighting and military skills.
 
The issue with Cummins being involved is that he is their as a representative of HM govt but unlike a minister or even the prime minister himself, Cummins isn’t elected and therefore isn’t accountable (directly) for his actions.
 
zorro_mfc said:
The issue with Cummins being involved is that he is their as a representative of HM govt but unlike a minister or even the prime minister himself, Cummins isn’t elected and therefore isn’t accountable (directly) for his actions.
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The more important issue is that he is not a scientist. Where this is a board of only scientists who draw up information for COBRA to discuss.
 
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