Daily Mail hatchet job on Boro and Wycombe

Samuels is a massively overweight London hack who has made his way down in his career from writing in the Times to now putting out stuff like this for the Daily Mail and GQ Magazine.

Lots of smoke was blown up his backside earlier in his career by the winning of some internal awards that allowed him the title at one time “Sports Journalist of the Year 2011” However like some tired old sign in an Indian Restaurant that says it was Indian restaurant of the Year in 1994 he has long past his sell by date and become just a lazy writer and I wouldn’t have had the misfortune to read his irrelevant crap if it wasn’t for three separate posters linking it.

Do ignore.

I don't know why but always remember him slagging Wigan fans off many years ago for not taking much of an away following to Chelsea for a league game. This was over 10 years ago and Chelsea were charging £50 for away fans even then.

Samuels made no mention of that, the travelling distance involved or the fact Wigan are a relatively new club with a small fan base. Instead the insinuation was they should have been selling out the away end given the chance to play at such a big club and it was a disgrace they hadn't.

Just a fat ignorant hack. Good match for the Daily Heil mind.
 
Surprised Samuel knows what the EFL is, poor journalist writing for an equally poor paper.....nothing to see. As I said on another thread I'm getting bored of this blame game. Administrators should get on with doing their job and sell Derby....if these issues are too complicated for them perhaps Mel should appoint new administrators. I seem to remember Darlington being demoted to the Northern League for failing to come out of administration properly
 
My understanding, even if we remove our claim, they'd still be in trouble. Why dont we remove the claim and see how they do? If they survive, reclaim.
 
If it was so flimsy, it would have been dealt with when it started over a year ago.
That's simply never the case!

I keep hearing this over and over again but surely the way Derby were operating gave them a huge advantage over us.

If they'd have stuck to the rules and lived within their means would they have attracted players like Mason Mount and Harry Wilson? Probably not.

Would they have finished above us without those players? Absolutely no chance.

I don't think our claim is as ludicrous as people think, the one thing I think Derby fans have a point with is where those claims would stop. Can we also sue clubs like Leeds and Villa who bent the rules?

It is. I won't go back over my views on causation but in response to this particular point would just say that it is a league of 24 teams. It is not just Derby v Middlesbrough. We've got to prove that had Derby not broken the rules we would have (on the balance of probabilities) got into the play offs. There are a number of difficulties with such an argument that I have long since exhausted and can't be arsed to repeat but what I think may be being forgotten is that if we say Derby's breach of the rules (that they were punished in accordance with let's not forget) affected their on pitch performance such that we would have finished a place higher then their on pitch performance was affected in every single game they played. So what do you do with that? We drew with them twice I think that season, but other teams will have lost. Do we wipe those results and adjust the table? Do we apply some sort of handicap system? I've even read mention of using bookies' odds as a means to put a value on our claim. It's a really difficult argument this one legally.

Just my opinion again!

My understanding, even if we remove our claim, they'd still be in trouble. Why dont we remove the claim and see how they do? If they survive, reclaim.
Because no buyer would touch it with a bargepole with an unsettled claim and because it's too late from a legal perpspective to do that in reality.
 
Because no buyer would touch it with a bargepole with an unsettled claim and because it's too late from a legal perpspective to do that in reality.
So we cant remove our claim at all? Even with a promise not to try it again? Someone needs to settle it then
 
The article seems to say two things, one we (the 'boro) can't play fantasy football and assume results under different circumstances to the detriment of Derby.

Two, this is followed up by clearly stating we would have lost to every team in the play-offs that season if we had finished 6th by Samuel playing fantasy football himself.

Good solid journalism and reasoning.
 
I dont think its ludicrous at all, even before knowing the full details of it, which none of us do.

Ludicrous? No. Extremely difficult to prove causation and therefore win? Yes.

Why would an allegedly flimsy case with no real chance of success drag on since 2020 then?

The case was there long before administration or their points deductions.

Because they all do but especially in an administration like this. One party thinks they've got a case, the other doesn't and they follow the process which by its nature is long. I don't see why that is a surprise to anyone. If you could equate the length of time a case takes to its merits then it would be easy.
 
Because they all do but especially in an administration like this. One party thinks they've got a case, the other doesn't and they follow the process which by its nature is long. I don't see why that is a surprise to anyone. If you could equate the length of time a case takes to its merits then it would be easy.

The case started in 2020.
Administration started in November 2021.

I understand why the punishment took so long to arrive for Derby, because they fought it tooth and nail along the way and it went through appeals on both side.

But this case hasn't even reached court and it's been 18 months, whilst one side has continuously said how little chance it has of winning.
I get the administrators delay on it, but Mel Morris was in charge for 15 months whilst this was ongoing.
 
So what do you do with that? We drew with them twice I think that season, but other teams will have lost. Do we wipe those results and adjust the table? Do we apply some sort of handicap system? I've even read mention of using bookies' odds as a means to put a value on our claim. It's a really difficult argument this one legally.

Just my opinion again!

Wipe the results and adjust the tables and we finish 5th above Aston Villa (who beat Derby twice and finished 3 points above us).

Bristol City finished 3 points behind us, they drew with Derby and lost.
So they'd finish 2 points behind us in 7th without the Derby results.

The nearest club behind that is Nottingham Forest and they were 7 points behind us.
 
Another view, from yesterday about 25 min in... the finance bloke Kieran Maguire reckons Derby are on the hook for 28m (HMRC+VAT) + 20m MSD Holdings + 8m Arsenal (all at 100%) + other suppliers (pies, buses and so on) @ 25%... +3m (Administrators) and heading towards a total of 60 million


Grauniad FB Weekly
 
Wipe the results and adjust the tables and we finish 5th above Aston Villa (who beat Derby twice and finished 3 points above us).

Bristol City finished 3 points behind us, they drew with Derby and lost.
So they'd finish 2 points behind us in 7th without the Derby results.

The nearest club behind that is Nottingham Forest and they were 7 points behind us.
But that's my point - is that the right approach because who then gets relegated? Would Derby have got zero points? Just because it gives you the result you want, doesn't mean it's the right approach.
 
Another view, from yesterday about 25 min in... the finance bloke Kieran Maguire reckons Derby are on the hook for 28m (HMRC+VAT) + 20m MSD Holdings + 8m Arsenal (all at 100%) + other suppliers (pies, buses and so on) @ 25%... +3m (Administrators) and heading towards a total of 60 million


Grauniad FB Weekly
Plus having to buy the ground back, presumably at a figure north of £81m.
 
But that's my point - is that the right approach because who then gets relegated? Would Derby have got zero points? Just because it gives you the result you want, doesn't mean it's the right approach.

I'm not sure I do think it is the right approach, but our position in the table doesn't worsen if you remove Derby from the equation.

I'd have been all for them getting relegated for it, but it's clearly too late to do so.
Wouldn't mind Rotherham getting recompense though.

The problem that season is that 4-5 teams were cheating.
Reading, Birmingham, Sheffield Wednesday, Derby and arguably Aston Villa.
 
That's simply never the case!



It is. I won't go back over my views on causation but in response to this particular point would just say that it is a league of 24 teams. It is not just Derby v Middlesbrough. We've got to prove that had Derby not broken the rules we would have (on the balance of probabilities) got into the play offs. There are a number of difficulties with such an argument that I have long since exhausted and can't be arsed to repeat but what I think may be being forgotten is that if we say Derby's breach of the rules (that they were punished in accordance with let's not forget) affected their on pitch performance such that we would have finished a place higher then their on pitch performance was affected in every single game they played. So what do you do with that? We drew with them twice I think that season, but other teams will have lost. Do we wipe those results and adjust the table? Do we apply some sort of handicap system? I've even read mention of using bookies' odds as a means to put a value on our claim. It's a really difficult argument this one legally.

Just my opinion again!


Because no buyer would touch it with a bargepole with an unsettled claim and because it's too late from a legal perpspective to do that in reality.

Yeah I've read your replies on this thread and you make a good point about it being a potentially difficult case to win.

I guess I'm just looking back at that period where Derby were throwing money at bringing in Lampard and an expensively assembled squad and their league position was artificially inflated.

Take out their loan players that season and there's no way that they finish 6th absolutely no chance. I think that part is easy to argue, the difficult bit comes after that.
 
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