England V Italy

Malaguena said:
Well I'd ask him to stop giving so many stupid penalties away
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Alan Wyn Jones gave away four penalties yesterday. Still had a great game. The best players have to get close to the edge. Itoje will learn and will get better.
 
Jostler said:
I think I’m now favouring the approach ST has suggested with 2 tiers and a relegation / promotion format.

It would give Italy a kick up the bum rather than just the threat of the obligatory wooden spoon and would give Georgia the motivation to push on.

I appreciate the level at the top is so hard, massively dependent on funding and it isn’t going to reap rewards short term, but if we don’t give teams the incentives to improve apart from every 4 years at a WC, the sport is never going to grow.
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I totally agree with that but there no way turkeys will vote for xmas.

I think the scores in rugby are so hard hitting that I doubt losing heavily really helps the smaller nation either.
 
I seem to remember France were fairly awful when they first joined the old Home Nations. They've become a proper rugby nation over the years.

The problem with Italy is domestic competition is miles away from the Top 14 in France. Even the second division in France is good and the likes of Biarittz are in that league. Italy population wise could sustain their own league but currently only have three professional teams. That's a big problem for development.
 
Jostler said:
I think I’m now favouring the approach ST has suggested with 2 tiers and a relegation / promotion format.

It would give Italy a kick up the bum rather than just the threat of the obligatory wooden spoon and would give Georgia the motivation to push on.

I appreciate the level at the top is so hard, massively dependent on funding and it isn’t going to reap rewards short term, but if we don’t give teams the incentives to improve apart from every 4 years at a WC, the sport is never going to grow.
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Isn't the problem more to do with only a small number of countries playing the game. The 6 nations would, I presume have to come from or around europe because of it's frequency so that limits numbers more. Are there 8 countries around europe that play rugby to a high enough standard for even a 2 tier competition.
 
Laughing said:
Isn't the problem more to do with only a small number of countries playing the game. The 6 nations would, I presume have to come from or around europe because of it's frequency so that limits numbers more. Are there 8 countries around europe that play rugby to a high enough standard for even a 2 tier competition.
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This is the heart of it same with the cricket it’s not a truly global sport. There pockets but it’s still largely colonial with france added on.
 
Nero said:
I seem to remember France were fairly awful when they first joined the old Home Nations. They've become a proper rugby nation over the years.

The problem with Italy is domestic competition is miles away from the Top 14 in France. Even the second division in France is good and the likes of Biarittz are in that league. Italy population wise could sustain their own league but currently only have three professional teams. That's a big problem for development.
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You'd have to go back to pre-war. They beat the Springboks in a tour series in the 50s and won two 5 nations championships in the 60s. They were a match for Wales with their stars in the 70s.
 
bear66 said:
You'd have to go back to pre-war. They beat the Springboks in a tour series in the 50s and won two 5 nations championships in the 60s. They were a match for Wales with their stars in the 70s.
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I didn't realise they developed by the 50's. They've had some brilliant teams since I've been watching rugby.
 
zorro_mfc said:
This is the heart of it same with the cricket it’s not a truly global sport. There pockets but it’s still largely colonial with france added on.
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Georgia, Russia and Romania are the possible countries to compete for Italy's place. At the moment, Georgia are a tougher defensive team but Italy have a bit of flair to score tries.
 
Nero said:
I didn't realise they developed by the 50's. They've had some brilliant teams since I've been watching rugby.
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I first saw them live in 1962. Wales won 3-0 (after having lost the previous 4 matches to them).
 
bear66 said:
I first saw them live in 1962. Wales won 3-0 (after having lost the previous 4 matches to them).
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It's good for the game they look back to something like their best. Hopefully COVID is long gone by the time they host the next World Cup.
 
bear66 said:
Georgia, Russia and Romania are the possible countries to compete for Italy's place. At the moment, Georgia are a tougher defensive team but Italy have a bit of flair to score tries.
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But have the Argentine ringers that are/were common in Italian rugby papered over the cracks and given a false impression as to how strong they really are.
 
zorro_mfc said:
But have the Argentine ringers that are/were common in Italian rugby papered over the cracks and given a false impression as to how strong they really are.
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That's a fair comment. Mind you, most European countries seem to have South African ringers!

Arguably the best Irish players are actually Springbok. Scotland's new winger is another. Even France have had a couple of South Africans.
 
zorro_mfc said:
But have the Argentine ringers that are/were common in Italian rugby papered over the cracks and given a false impression as to how strong they really are.
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Argentina were a joke 10 years ago

Scotland had 16 foreign players in their squad last season; Wales 11, Italy 8 and England 4.
 
Rugby as well is all about the coach and the tactics how tight the players are in training so unlike say football where a minnow nation can pull off amazing feats with one or two star players ( look at bales at Wales or zlatan for Sweden) this isn’t the case in rugby.

where the sim is often greater than the parts.
 
Laughing said:
Isn't the problem more to do with only a small number of countries playing the game. The 6 nations would, I presume have to come from or around europe because of it's frequency so that limits numbers more. Are there 8 countries around europe that play rugby to a high enough standard for even a 2 tier competition.
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Probably not. Off the top of my head: Georgia, Spain, Russia, Romania and the Netherlands could all do a job (Belgium and Germany I guess) Not sure what else there is out there and technically one of those countries is Asian.
Currently Georgia would storm that but Romania have potential and Spain have had flashes in the past
 
SmallTown said:
Probably not. Off the top of my head: Georgia, Spain, Russia, Romania and the Netherlands could all do a job (Belgium and Germany I guess) Not sure what else there is out there and technically one of those countries is Asian.
Currently Georgia would storm that but Romania have potential and Spain have had flashes in the past
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Spain is definitely on the up, as is Portugal. Germany are building as well.

An initial 2nd tier of (e.g.) Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Germany and Portugal would be won easily by Georgia initially, but a structured and regular competition would help the others grow quickly - I think it would be competitive, with no really weak teams - whether the winner of that could step up and not be a whipping boy in the 6 Nations is another matter
 
Malaguena said:
Spain is definitely on the up, as is Portugal. Germany are building as well.

An initial 2nd tier of (e.g.) Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain, Germany and Portugal would be won easily by Georgia initially, but a structured and regular competition would help the others grow quickly - I think it would be competitive, with no really weak teams - whether the winner of that could step up and not be a whipping boy in the 6 Nations is another matter
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Georgia have won it three years in a row. There are 5 tiers altogether with 5/6 teams in each. Spain runners up in the last two years.
Link
 
bear66 said:
Argentina were a joke 10 years ago

Scotland had 16 foreign players in their squad last season; Wales 11, Italy 8 and England 4.
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Not having that Bear. They reached the quarter finals in 2011 having beaten Scotland and massacred the lightweights in the Grohp. They narrowly lost to England and finally put out by the hosts the All Blacks. Far from being a joke.
 
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