Flower of Scotland

Muttley said:
Ah the nonsense about "cancelling history".

No history is mostly what we are taught but the truth is often in what we are not taught. So yes, the truth that underlies history has to be uncovered. So when for example there are statues of slave traders like Edward Colston staring serenely across Bristol is it not right that the statue is removed? Or should we still simply honour his philanthropy without even acknowledging where he obtained the money to express his largesse?

It is not cancelling history to highlight the Slave Trade on which a lot of wealth was created and still benefits some.

This inaccurate history blights us, seeing the British Empire as some largely benevolent enterprise that "civilised the world" has engendered the myth of British/English Exceptionalism and contributed in no small measure to the rise of nationalism, insular attitude, Brexit and many other problems.
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You convieniently missed the bit where i said we need to learn from our history and use it to educate people, thanks for that. I am comfortable with how the people of Bristol intend to use Colston’s statue. The way it was toppled was a criminal act, mob rule I do not support.

It is a fact, whether you like it or not that Colston played a significant part in making Bristol what it is today. Of course in modern times such acts would rightly be considered criminal and not tolerated. The slave trade is rightly an embarrassment to our nation as it is to many others, sadly it is still not totally eradicated, we still hear examples of it in this country today. However, we should use all statues as symbols to learn and educate both good and bad and yes, over time, remove them and replace with symbols and figures of positive actions fit for the modern world. The people of the area and their councils should decide their fate though not a riotous mob.
 
coluka said:
Of course I am anti racist, suggesting i am not suggests you think i am, which is more than disappointing. I also agree we learn from past behaviours and educate on them to help achieve a fairer society as we move forward. The flag is a symbol of our nation and the fact some obscene far right nutjobs tried to adopt it as theirs is not the fault of the country itself. The problem is debate gets stifled and people try to pigeon hole you like you have here by suggesting i am a little bit racist which sickens me frankly.
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There are massive differences between being racist, non racist and anti racist. Like I said you don't come across as being anti racist to me and your previous stance about BLM and ALM is a classic example of the difference.
 
"to show support for a group of people who are continuously treated unfairly, abused and discriminated against individually and institutionally day in day out."

I have read this statement over and over again, and I did not want to react to it, but feel I need to.
I guess the "group of people" you are referring to (amongst others), are people who have black skin. Do you actually know many black people? Do you socialise with black people on a daily basis? Do you work with black people on a daily basis. Do you know black people who you can call close friends?. I can answer yes to all 4 of them questions. I have lived and worked in the London area for over 30 years, and value my close ties and friendships, with not only black skinned people, but also Asians and recent migrants from Europe.
A little later on today, I will be meeting a group of friends (weather permitting) for a kick about at the local park, prior to heading to a pub to watch the game. The kick about and the pub, will be roughly split...white & black, although to be honest, its only when I stop to think about it....when reading such crass statements above...that I notice the difference. If I were to stand on a table this evening and ask "this group of people"......""do you feel you are continuously treated unfairly, abused and discriminated against individually and institutionally day in day out""....I know what the answer would be!!!!

I do not think or pretend to be an educated person (like many on here), and I do not deny there are problems within this country regarding equality , but to make statements such as "to show support for a group of people who are continuously treated unfairly, abused and discriminated against individually and institutionally day in day out" is clearly wrong
 
Corco65 said:
There are massive differences between being racist, non racist and anti racist. Like I said you don't come across as being anti racist to me and your previous stance about BLM and ALM is a classic example of the difference.
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Every life matters to suggest they don’t is bizarre and possibly racist imho, Black lives matter just as much as anyone else's, of course they do. Lots to do to make things fairer and more equal for all in our society, I appreciate black people in most western societies have a harder path on average to have the same life chances and more needs doing, but it is not all about racism, it is about so much more. I think your post is about how the person chooses to interpret a comment. You chose how you wanted to interpret me and persist with your view, which, like i say is disappointingly inaccurate.
 
coluka said:
Every life matters to suggest they don’t is bizarre and possibly racist imho, Black lives matter just as much as anyone else's, of course they do. Lots to do to make things fairer and more equal for all in our society, I appreciate black people in most western societies have a harder path on average to have the same life chances and more needs doing, but it is not all about racism, it is about so much more. I think your post is about how the person chooses to interpret a comment. You chose how you wanted to interpret me and persist with your view, which, like i say is disappointingly inaccurate.
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Who said every life doesn't matter?

You said you saw your self as anti racist, I'm giving you some 3rd party feedback, you might not like it or agree and you can choose to do with it what you want, but that's my view and from what I read it is disappointing accurate.
 
coluka said:
Every life matters to suggest they don’t is bizarre
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No, it is a tactic employed by the right to deny the importance and validity of the BLM movement. The phrase is simple "Black Lives Matter" there is no implied fourth word (more). All Lives Matter is a cynical attempt to deny the validity of a simple statement. If there is an implied adjunct to "Black Lives Matter" it is "just as much as everyone else". If you don't understand who is doing this and why they are doing this you have not been paying attention
 
Smogonthethames said:
"to show support for a group of people who are continuously treated unfairly, abused and discriminated against individually and institutionally day in day out."

I have read this statement over and over again, and I did not want to react to it, but feel I need to.
I guess the "group of people" you are referring to (amongst others), are people who have black skin. Do you actually know many black people? Do you socialise with black people on a daily basis? Do you work with black people on a daily basis. Do you know black people who you can call close friends?. I can answer yes to all 4 of them questions. I have lived and worked in the London area for over 30 years, and value my close ties and friendships, with not only black skinned people, but also Asians and recent migrants from Europe.
A little later on today, I will be meeting a group of friends (weather permitting) for a kick about at the local park, prior to heading to a pub to watch the game. The kick about and the pub, will be roughly split...white & black, although to be honest, its only when I stop to think about it....when reading such crass statements above...that I notice the difference. If I were to stand on a table this evening and ask "this group of people"......""do you feel you are continuously treated unfairly, abused and discriminated against individually and institutionally day in day out""....I know what the answer would be!!!!

I do not think or pretend to be an educated person (like many on here), and I do not deny there are problems within this country regarding equality , but to make statements such as "to show support for a group of people who are continuously treated unfairly, abused and discriminated against individually and institutionally day in day out" is clearly wrong
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Your world must be disconnected from the real world then, should you choose to see it.

I'll take you up on your offer, talk to all your non white friends, and I hope they can have a open and honest conversation with you, that means starting without presuming what the answer is going to be as that is already a barrier to honest dialogue. If you have the conversation and your view is right then you certainly have a unique set of friends.
 
Corco65 said:
Your world must be disconnected from the real world then, should you choose to see it.

I'll take you up on your offer, talk to all your non white friends, and I hope they can have a open and honest conversation with you, that means starting without presuming what the answer is going to be as that is already a barrier to honest dialogue. If you have the conversation and your view is right then you certainly have a unique set of friends.
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I think you are the one who is disconnected.
I have had such a conversation many many times, and their open and frank answers are always the same. " whites seem to think we are still living like slaves and racially abused on a daily basis...we are not^ and that is the truth....but you crack on
If you yourrself are black or non white then I guess your experience is different, as your post seems to suggest, or are you living on a farm in the Sherlands, as you seem far removed from the real world.
 
indeedido said:
Corcaigh hates flags and flag waving, unless of course it's a tricolour.
The Scots will be waving their flags and fair play to them.
There is definitely a proportion of English people who seem embarrassed to get behind their country with the same passion they seem to respect so much in other countries?
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I agree, mental isn’t it, I wonder what their motive is, for god sake get behind your country.
 
Muttley said:
No, it is a tactic employed by the right to deny the importance and validity of the BLM movement. The phrase is simple "Black Lives Matter" there is no implied fourth word (more). All Lives Matter is a cynical attempt to deny the validity of a simple statement. If there is an implied adjunct to "Black Lives Matter" it is "just as much as everyone else". If you don't understand who is doing this and why they are doing this you have not been paying attention
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Thats may be true, but not in my case, some seemingly just choose to interpret and lump everyone together in the same way. I use my words literally with no added implied meaning here. I do not know how more clear I can be. I value the life of everyone. I hate racism in all its forms I wont discriminate in favour or against anyone i meet through the colour of their skin. People are people, good and bad in every race, creed, colour. I love my country and will always stand up for fairness and equality and have done all my life. How people live their lives, well that‘s another matter.

Look at some of the security in Manchester that chose not to confront the bomber for fear of being branded racist. The more people are jumped on incorrectly by people assuming something that wasn’t said and ‘labelled’, free speech and debate is shut down and people just stay silent and live insular lives, good samaritans end up crossing the road assuming someone else will respond. I’ll bet there are a good few members on here afraid to debate for fear of some clowns judging them as being ‘a little bit racist’.
 
Smogonthethames said:
I think you are the one who is disconnected.
I have had such a conversation many many times, and their open and frank answers are always the same. " whites seem to think we are still living like slaves and racially abused on a daily basis...we are not^ and that is the truth....but you crack on no
If you yourrself are black or non white then I guess your experience is different, as your post seems to suggest, or are you living on a farm in the Sherlands, as you seem far removed from the real world.
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Here is my farm in the Sherlands wherever that is.
www.theguardian.com

Racism in the UK still rife, say majority of Britons

Poll finds most people see no progress on tackling discrimination in their lifetime
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
Corco65 said:
Here is my farm in the Sherlands wherever that is.
www.theguardian.com

Racism in the UK still rife, say majority of Britons

Poll finds most people see no progress on tackling discrimination in their lifetime
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
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The Guardian!!..I will not register to read that ..does the report suggest "a group of people who are continuously treated unfairly, abused and discriminated against individually and institutionally day in day out."
 
Smogonthethames said:
The Guardian!!..I will not register to read that ..does the report suggest "a group of people who are continuously treated unfairly, abused and discriminated against individually and institutionally day in day out."
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There is no need to register to read it. They operate on an honesty policy - subscribe if you want.
 
NYboro said:
There is no need to register to read it. They operate on an honesty policy - subscribe if you want.
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I may well do later.
I am going out to enjoy the evening and what will hopefully be a very good evening indeed

Corco 65, I shall pass your good thoughts to my black friends and the other good people of Croydon this evening...and let them know that you have their backs!!
 
Smogonthethames said:
I may well do later.
I am going out to enjoy the evening and what will hopefully be a very good evening indeed

Corco 65, I shall pass your good thoughts to my black friends and the other good people of Croydon this evening...and let them know that you have their backs!!
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Thank you, please do, that's very gracious of you.

And I'm sure you would like to help drown out the booing for me too. 👍
 
Corco65 said:
CIC is one of the most insightful, fair and compassionate posters on the board in my opinion.

Flags can be a powerful symbol, some people see it as patriotic and loud and proud. Some people look at it differently aren't always proud of some of the values we currently stand for or proud of a murderous past.

I'd much rather you waved a BLM flag Col to show support for a group of people who are continuously treated unfairly, abused and discriminated against individually and institutionally day in day out. What a marvelous gesture that would be from the people of the country standing up and showing their commitment and belief in British values of fairness and equality, now that would be something to be proud of.
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It’s a football match ffs!!, get a life.
 
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