Gibson's appointments

Investement free summer window? We spent about £30m didn't we?
Nett spend of £31.0m that season, which was the lowest in the PL that season.
The Summer window spent £25.9m and brought in £12.2m, nett £13.7m. Pitiful.
Then came the genius of January with Gestede and Guedioura for £11.07m and Bamford for £6.2m
 
No he doesn't get the big calls right.
Not remotely.

Hiring Southgate was ridiculous. He should have gone in January 09 before relegation.
Southgate was the main reason for our European success he kept us in the prem a further 2 seasons and would have further had the bank not pulled the plug.
Strachan was a complete disaster.
Yes, the plan was to build a relatively cheap Scottish team. Summer 2008 we turned our noses up to some class players recommended by Mark Proctor .
Mowbray managed through a financial wasteland, but then was taking us down.
He built the core of a promotion winning squad on next to nothing.
Karanka was a success while he was backed to promotion and then painfully unsupported in the PL investment free summer window.
We gambled HARD Valdes, Espinosa, De Roon, Fischer, Traore, Negredo etc
Agnew's appointment was a joke.
Wagner turned the job down.
Monk was then a disaster, given free reign, spending £50m on utter rubbish that the club have lost £38m on, before wages.
We spent £50m
pulis then spent another £20m on Flint, Saville and McNair, whilst borrowing rubbish and selling quality.
We spent £20m
Woodgate was a disaster, but had no chance.
He kept costs down
Warnock saved us from the drop, but should have gone after his first full season.
He deserved at least a full season
Wilder started brilliantly but was so obviously at odds with the Mickey Mouse framework Gibson has put in with Scott.
Wilder rode the wave and did little outside of the cup games
Meanwhile the club is unsaleable at £120m underwater (5th worst position in Britain) and had the worst start ever to a season outside the top flight.
Lots of clubs in financial difficulties. We are going for it year on year whilst reducing our costs and increasing our sales. We’re sustainable, we’re punching, we’re everything fans hold in high regard.
 
If that is true we are completely f@cked. You are painting a doomsday scenario here. Basically that last sentence could well mean we are heading the way of Derby. Depressing stuff this thread.
Seriously this stuff is all in the public domain. Just go to the Companies House website. Every club's published accounts to June 2021 are freely available.
Negative Nett Shareholder Value means the business is technically insolvent, kept a going concern by Group Undertakings where the Group promises not to call in the loans within 12 months, even if they are listed as Creditors due within 12 months.
It means that the liabilities of the club outweigh the assets.

There are only 4 British clubs with bigger negative nett shareholder value than Middlesbrough.
Brighton -£238.7m
Stoke -£194.7m
West Ham -£165.0m
Cardiff -£141.8m
BORO -£116.6m.

There are clubs with bigger debts than Middlesbrough, but none more underwater.

This means nobody in their right mind would pay anything to take control of the club in the Championship. Why buy something worth MINUS £117m? with a turnover of c £25m that loses money outside the PL?
So, even if Gibson gave the club away, a new owner would pick up something with £117m nett liabilities, unable to raise external finance.
So unless Gibson was to write off the £121m internal loan his Group is owed by the Club, then nobody will pay anything for Gibson's equity.
IF he writes this debt off, converting it to equity as he has moderately done before then I am sure other parties might get involved and take over the club. But trhey won't want him running it. Who seriously would?
IF he writes this off AND gave the club away then he would have put £185m into the club (inc £64m debt to equity conversion 2012-2016), the sort of money people think he has over his 29 year reign.
If he won't then he is stuck with us and we are stuck with him.

I get the romance around local bloke, supporter, best interests etc.
But he has had complete control.
He has us lower than where we started under him and completely unsaleable.

That is why we desperately needed to get things right this summer.
If promoted and re-established in the PL then the debt can be contained, not expanded; the financial balance addressed and rationalised, the club sold and Gibson get some money back.

Every season we lose money this death spiral gets more pronounced.
Randy Lerner got out at Villa having lost a fortune, but enabling the club to continue under new ownership who injected a fortune in.
Ellis Short got out at Sunderland and dropped a fortune to enable it to go again.
I think Gibson still thinks he offers the club the only way, despite the evidence of the last 16 years.
 
Seriously this stuff is all in the public domain. Just go to the Companies House website. Every club's published accounts to June 2021 are freely available.
Negative Nett Shareholder Value means the business is technically insolvent, kept a going concern by Group Undertakings where the Group promises not to call in the loans within 12 months, even if they are listed as Creditors due within 12 months.
It means that the liabilities of the club outweigh the assets.

There are only 4 British clubs with bigger negative nett shareholder value than Middlesbrough.
Brighton -£238.7m
Stoke -£194.7m
West Ham -£165.0m
Cardiff -£141.8m
BORO -£116.6m.

There are clubs with bigger debts than Middlesbrough, but none more underwater.

This means nobody in their right mind would pay anything to take control of the club in the Championship. Why buy something worth MINUS £117m? with a turnover of c £25m that loses money outside the PL?
So, even if Gibson gave the club away, a new owner would pick up something with £117m nett liabilities, unable to raise external finance.
So unless Gibson was to write off the £121m internal loan his Group is owed by the Club, then nobody will pay anything for Gibson's equity.
IF he writes this debt off, converting it to equity as he has moderately done before then I am sure other parties might get involved and take over the club. But trhey won't want him running it. Who seriously would?
IF he writes this off AND gave the club away then he would have put £185m into the club (inc £64m debt to equity conversion 2012-2016), the sort of money people think he has over his 29 year reign.
If he won't then he is stuck with us and we are stuck with him.

I get the romance around local bloke, supporter, best interests etc.
But he has had complete control.
He has us lower than where we started under him and completely unsaleable.

That is why we desperately needed to get things right this summer.
If promoted and re-established in the PL then the debt can be contained, not expanded; the financial balance addressed and rationalised, the club sold and Gibson get some money back.

Every season we lose money this death spiral gets more pronounced.
Randy Lerner got out at Villa having lost a fortune, but enabling the club to continue under new ownership who injected a fortune in.
Ellis Short got out at Sunderland and dropped a fortune to enable it to go again.
I think Gibson still thinks he offers the club the only way, despite the evidence of the last 16 years.
I am not disputing your financial assessment - not any of it and you may well be right - all I am saying is that following your comment that we are "unsellable" in your previous post the conclusion and the only way out of this is - er going under.
 
Nett spend of £31.0m that season, which was the lowest in the PL that season.
The Summer window spent £25.9m and brought in £12.2m, nett £13.7m. Pitiful.
Then came the genius of January with Gestede and Guedioura for £11.07m and Bamford for £6.2m

I can't remember the exact figures but wasn't it:

De Roon £10m
Traore £7m
Fischer £5m
Barragan £3m
Fabio £2m
Plus a couple of loans on high wages (Negrado and Chambers).

So not earth shattering but not an 'investment free summer' either.
 
Get’s the big calls right?

So imho he moved us to the Riverside rather than Ayresome being redeveloped, he was ambitious in the 90s and early 00s (when credit was cheap and easy), he bought in Venables and kept faith with McClaren.

Can’t think of anymore he’s got right and there are at last two big calls he’s got wrong for everyone right imho!
 
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I am not disputing your financial assessment - not any of it and you may well be right - all I am saying is that following your comment that we are "unsellable" in your previous post the conclusion and the only way out of this is - er going under.
Either:
1. Gibson converts his loans to equity in the club, which will impact the Group obviously. This would reduce/eliminate the nett negative shareholder value/ nett liability. This would make the club worth a go for a new owner. A decent size club with good support, good stadium and facilities, little debt, PL potential, but needing investment to deliver it.

2. Gibson continues to run the club, lose money, increase his intra Group Loans/Undertakings, making the position progressively more desperate. If Bulkhaul failed - unlikely - then they simply couldn't offset a basket case Football Club, or Golf resort.

3. Gibson calls it a day, puts the Club into Administration, gets out what he can and leaves the club to go again most likely from League One.

4. Gibson by some miracle gets in a DeLorean and discovers his old self, snatches promotion, keeps us there and makes the club more stable and saleable in a new state.

I'd love 4 to happen, but the events of this summer show that is for the birds.
I think he will go with 2, carry on regardless until the big bang.
 
Either:
1. Gibson converts his loans to equity in the club, which will impact the Group obviously. This would reduce/eliminate the nett negative shareholder value/ nett liability. This would make the club worth a go for a new owner. A decent size club with good support, good stadium and facilities, little debt, PL potential, but needing investment to deliver it.

2. Gibson continues to run the club, lose money, increase his intra Group Loans/Undertakings, making the position progressively more desperate. If Bulkhaul failed - unlikely - then they simply couldn't offset a basket case Football Club, or Golf resort.

3. Gibson calls it a day, puts the Club into Administration, gets out what he can and leaves the club to go again most likely from League One.

4. Gibson by some miracle gets in a DeLorean and discovers his old self, snatches promotion, keeps us there and makes the club more stable and saleable in a new state.

I'd love 4 to happen, but the events of this summer show that is for the birds.
I think he will go with 2, carry on regardless until the big bang.
Free transfers to the prem or ten spence it to profitability!
 
I can't remember the exact figures but wasn't it:

De Roon £10m
Traore £7m
Fischer £5m
Barragan £3m
Fabio £2m
Plus a couple of loans on high wages (Negrado and Chambers).

So not earth shattering but not an 'investment free summer' either.
No offence, but the figures I quoted are accurate.
Middlesbrough All Transfers

Just go to the season 2016-17.
It was the lowest nett spend that season.
The Summer Nett spend was £13.7m before a ridiculous January.
 
Indeedido spells out very clearly where the club is - and the scenarios that will probably be played out. Gibbo has been the contributor to the financial mire we are faced with. How so many posters still hold him in such very high esteem is beyond me
 
Seriously this stuff is all in the public domain. Just go to the Companies House website. Every club's published accounts to June 2021 are freely available.
Negative Nett Shareholder Value means the business is technically insolvent, kept a going concern by Group Undertakings where the Group promises not to call in the loans within 12 months, even if they are listed as Creditors due within 12 months.
It means that the liabilities of the club outweigh the assets.

There are only 4 British clubs with bigger negative nett shareholder value than Middlesbrough.
Brighton -£238.7m
Stoke -£194.7m
West Ham -£165.0m
Cardiff -£141.8m
BORO -£116.6m.

There are clubs with bigger debts than Middlesbrough, but none more underwater.

This means nobody in their right mind would pay anything to take control of the club in the Championship. Why buy something worth MINUS £117m? with a turnover of c £25m that loses money outside the PL?
So, even if Gibson gave the club away, a new owner would pick up something with £117m nett liabilities, unable to raise external finance.
So unless Gibson was to write off the £121m internal loan his Group is owed by the Club, then nobody will pay anything for Gibson's equity.
IF he writes this debt off, converting it to equity as he has moderately done before then I am sure other parties might get involved and take over the club. But trhey won't want him running it. Who seriously would?
IF he writes this off AND gave the club away then he would have put £185m into the club (inc £64m debt to equity conversion 2012-2016), the sort of money people think he has over his 29 year reign.
If he won't then he is stuck with us and we are stuck with him.

I get the romance around local bloke, supporter, best interests etc.
But he has had complete control.
He has us lower than where we started under him and completely unsaleable.

That is why we desperately needed to get things right this summer.
If promoted and re-established in the PL then the debt can be contained, not expanded; the financial balance addressed and rationalised, the club sold and Gibson get some money back.

Every season we lose money this death spiral gets more pronounced.
Randy Lerner got out at Villa having lost a fortune, but enabling the club to continue under new ownership who injected a fortune in.
Ellis Short got out at Sunderland and dropped a fortune to enable it to go again.
I think Gibson still thinks he offers the club the only way, despite the evidence of the last 16 years.

Indeedio, I find your posts fascinating and incredibly insightful, so thank you for sharing this kind of information with us.

Can I ask though, are you an accountant? Perhaps linked to the club? Or just someone who is really good at analysing the clubs accounts in your spare time?
 
Indeedio, I find your posts fascinating and incredibly insightful, so thank you for sharing this kind of information with us.

Can I ask though, are you an accountant? Perhaps linked to the club? Or just someone who is really good at analysing the clubs accounts in your spare time?
Genuinely not linked to the club or their accountant.
The stuff I post is because I can understand and interpret Company Accounts and yes I have time and am fascinated with the analysis.
The published accounts are pretty simplistic and very consistent in format across clubs.
 
No offence, but the figures I quoted are accurate.
Middlesbrough All Transfers

Just go to the season 2016-17.
It was the lowest nett spend that season.
The Summer Nett spend was £13.7m before a ridiculous January.
No offence taken (I was close enough anyway 🙂).
I wasn't disputing your figures, just pointing out that it wasn't a 'no investment' summer. Low investment maybe, but at the time we were mostly happy enough with the business.
 
The question is, was Gibson ever “shrewd” (in reference to Indeedido’s point 4) or was it simply that he was always able to throw money at things in his first decade or so in the hot seat, to get the impressive results he did? Either way, it looks like he ain’t going anywhere anytime soon so I will continue to support him until he does.
 
A manager is successful if he moves the club forward. But you have to caveat that with the assets at their disposal.

Robson 9/10 - improved the club massively, changed the whole culture of Boro
SMAC 9/10 - Turned optimism into a trophy and european football
Southgate 6/10 - Thrown a job that was simply far too difficult even for an experienced manager. Kept us up for 2 years before it fell apart
Strachan 2/10 - Worst manager in my lifetime
Mogga 6/10 - handed a crap squad, no money, turned it around, then flitered it away again returning back to where it started
Karanka 9/10 - Brilliant appointment, really shook the malaise off the club for a couple of years
Monk 4/10 - couldnt buy a win agsainst any of the top teams but beat the poor ones. Should have done far better with the money he was given to spend
Pulis 6/10 - took on players that didn't suit him, added a couple that did reached the play offs, before it strated to go sour
Woodate 2/10 - never looked up to the job
Warnock 6.5/10 - kept us out of trouble, flirted with success, but it was always a bit beyond him and the direction at the end was back to lower-mid medioocrity
Wilder 6/10 - took over lower mid mediocrity, turned it into a barnstorming side, before seeing it all fall apart back to a lower half team.

11 manager. Robson, SMac and Karanka were successes. Southgate, Mogga, Wilder, Warnock, Pulis all had bits of success bit fell apart at the end. Strachan, Monk, Woodgate all unmitigated disasters.

It's a mixed bag. Next one needs to be right.
Agree with the majority of this but some very flattering scores for Southgate and Wilder
 
One thing about Gibson, some of these managers were bad, bad decisions, but his appointments are usually ambitious.

He does tend to pull cats out of the bag.

Woodgate is the glaring one that wasn’t. Austerity manager. And Agnew of course, the worst decision he’s ever made. Southgate was a cost cutting choice but also a club legend - it looked seriously bad in retrospect because that was our chance to bring in a serious manager after a European final, but hindsight also shows that Gareth had an X factor and would be a successful manager one day.

But the rest… You could make an argument at the time they were hired that they were ambitious appointments for the level we were at.

Pulis and Wilder, Premier League managers with loads of promotions. Warnock, the king of promotions. Strachan had just come from a massive club. McClaren and Karanka were in demand (McClaren turned down West Ham for us, Karanka turned down Palace) and came from the biggest clubs imaginable. Monk’s reputation was a bit of an Eddie Howe at Bournemouth type, known for good football and was being linked with PL jobs.

Point is, we don’t just hire steady Champo managers off the merry go round. His execution and decision-making can be very much questioned, but I think his ambition is still there and his heart’s still in it.

It wouldn’t massively surprise me if we pull out someone like Rooney, a headline appointment.
 
A manager is successful if he moves the club forward. But you have to caveat that with the assets at their disposal.

Robson 9/10 - improved the club massively, changed the whole culture of Boro
SMAC 9/10 - Turned optimism into a trophy and european football
Southgate 6/10 - Thrown a job that was simply far too difficult even for an experienced manager. Kept us up for 2 years before it fell apart
Strachan 2/10 - Worst manager in my lifetime
Mogga 6/10 - handed a crap squad, no money, turned it around, then flitered it away again returning back to where it started
Karanka 9/10 - Brilliant appointment, really shook the malaise off the club for a couple of years
Monk 4/10 - couldnt buy a win agsainst any of the top teams but beat the poor ones. Should have done far better with the money he was given to spend
Pulis 6/10 - took on players that didn't suit him, added a couple that did reached the play offs, before it strated to go sour
Woodate 2/10 - never looked up to the job
Warnock 6.5/10 - kept us out of trouble, flirted with success, but it was always a bit beyond him and the direction at the end was back to lower-mid medioocrity
Wilder 6/10 - took over lower mid mediocrity, turned it into a barnstorming side, before seeing it all fall apart back to a lower half team.

11 manager. Robson, SMac and Karanka were successes. Southgate, Mogga, Wilder, Warnock, Pulis all had bits of success bit fell apart at the end. Strachan, Monk, Woodgate all unmitigated disasters.

It's a mixed bag. Next one needs to be right.
Don’t forget Agnew, who gets a 1/10, which is coincidentally almost his managerial record of played 11, won 1.
 
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