I have truly mixed feelings over derby...

Oooo said:
personally I think Gibosn should drop the claim. For all the rights and wrongs of it all if Derby go out of existance we will be forever blamed. Ignore the idots - there are lots of genuine Derby fans who did nothing wrong themselves and dont deserve to lose their lifelong club. If Gibson publically drops his claim then we will be the good guys again :)
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Absolutely its a PR disaster for boro unless he come to a compromise with ashley or he drops the case
 
sherlock1969 said:
Steve Gibson started the legal action 12 months ago, long before Derby went into administration. Why should he drop that action just because they've been found out and punished?
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That’s not what I asked. I asked what breach has gone unpunished as has been suggested on this and other threads.
 
Thing is Mel Morris is still chairman, and if he had Derby's interests at heart, he could come to a compromise agreement and pay Boro and Wycombe tomorrow. He's still a very rich man in spite of throwing a load of money on the fire at Derby.

He has chosen both not to pay out for proven and accepted cheating, purely out of his own ego. Gibson saw him for what he as, called him out for what he was in front of his peers and in public, and he didn't like.

This could all go away if the man who caused it chose to do the right thing and pay compensation.
 
Adi_Dem said:
I’m still waiting for someone to tell me the crimes for which Derby have not been punished already. It’s a genuine question. I can’t find reference to it anywhere. The thrust of many of these arguments is that Gibson’s pursuit of a claim against Derby is somehow a noble one because there are breaches that have gone unpunished. But there aren’t as far as I can tell.

Here is the Agreed Decision which confirms that they were punished for the losses in excess of FFP thresholds, for late filing, for the dodgy amortization policies and for their administration:


That being the case, and given that the legal merit of our case is ropey, it then looks like we are pursuing a case at a critical time either to maximize leverage against a club on its knees or to kill that club. It’s a pretty awful look either way. It’s not noble. It smacks of vindictiveness. I hate the idea, whatever the circumstances, that our club could have a material role in killing another.
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Same here. Yes you might not like the punishment (too lenient, some argue) but you can't argue they haven't been done for it - eventually, granted, but even the EFL being tardy and incompetent isn't Derby's fault.

There needs to be a better way of dealing with the likes of Morris, perhaps independent regulation, but it shouldn't be for individual clubs to go after each other because the governing authorities are impotent - they need sorting out.

Yes, it is getting on my t!ts living down here with all this going on, if you can't tell.
 
Adi_Dem said:
I’m still waiting for someone to tell me the crimes for which Derby have not been punished already. It’s a genuine question. I can’t find reference to it anywhere. The thrust of many of these arguments is that Gibson’s pursuit of a claim against Derby is somehow a noble one because there are breaches that have gone unpunished. But there aren’t as far as I can tell.

Here is the Agreed Decision which confirms that they were punished for the losses in excess of FFP thresholds, for late filing, for the dodgy amortization policies and for their administration:


That being the case, and given that the legal merit of our case is ropey, it then looks like we are pursuing a case at a critical time either to maximize leverage against a club on its knees or to kill that club. It’s a pretty awful look either way. It’s not noble. It smacks of vindictiveness. I hate the idea, whatever the circumstances, that our club could have a material role in killing another.
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I think the whole point of the claim is that Boro (and Wycombe) have been detrimented by Derbys actions ie by virtue of narrowly missing out on a playoff place to them.

All clubs in the division to could obviously argue that they have been detrimented, but I'm sure the basis of Boro's claim is supported by the proximity to Derby, in the final standings. Plus there was one or two players that they signed ahead of us, which adds to our case.

It's clearly a difficult case and any legal advice will not have the benefit of similar cases - I'm sure this will be unchartered waters, legally speaking.

But in simple terms Boro and Wycome are 'victims' of Derbys actions and should be duly compensated for that.
 
I had sympathy for them. It's running thin after the daily Boro bashing on twitter.

I'm not overly bothered about us 'going after them'. I think the 45mil is just a number generated by someone and its probably a quarter of that at best.

I do have slight concerns about us. We've spent an absolute fortune in fees and wages over the last 3-4 years with very little in comings since Bamford and Traore sales. Then again I simply can't believe Gibson would go after Derby and be so vocal about FFP if our books weren't in order.

We have 'assets' in Fry / Spence / Tav and probably Mcnair. You'd think 40-50mil right there if the sh*t hit the fan.

We would look f*cking stupid if we fall foul of FFP.
 
Derby_Red said:
the EFL being tardy and incompetent isn't Derby's fault.
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Yes, it is?
Mel Morris deliberately delayed proceedings to ensure the punishment didn't occur last season.

They weren't even punished until Mel Morris had put them in to administration and was out of the picture.
The admins accepted the punishment on the 16th of November 2021.
Derby were first charged in January 2020, but fought it all the way.
It went through multiple independent panels and appeals before they finally received a deduction.

I fully understand why they would fight it, nobody wants to be punished, but that's the whole reason it has dragged on for years.
 
TeaCider said:
Yes, it is?
Mel Morris deliberately delayed proceedings to ensure the punishment didn't occur last season.

They weren't even punished until Mel Morris had put them in to administration and was out of the picture.
The admins accepted the punishment on the 16th of November 2021.
Derby were first charged in January 2020, but fought it all the way.

I fully understand why they would fight it, nobody wants to be punished, but that's whole reason it's dragged on for years.
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Ah right thanks I hadn't understood Morris was involved in the delay.
 
I seem to be swaying in my thoughts on this every other day.

For every Gibson bashing Derby fan who I have no sympathy for, there is a pure, footballing loving Derby fan who will be absolutely heartbroken to see their club go to the wall.

I would hate for our club to forever be remembered for partially bringing another club down, whether that be factually correct or not, there would be a large group of people who believe so. Even non-Derby fans are getting on this bandwagon right now across social media.

It's never fair that the fans suffer the worst out of these type of situations.
 
S7DiscoDown said:
I do have slight concerns about us. We've spent an absolute fortune in fees and wages over the last 3-4 years with very little in comings since Bamford and Traore sales. Then again I simply can't believe Gibson would go after Derby and be so vocal about FFP if our books weren't in order.
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you'd hope so. Plus signings are amortised. So this next set of accounts instantly loses 1/4 of Britts transfer fee and a year wages, and next year half of it. So this year is 3.75m of his wages gone, and 2..25m in wages. So 6m off the FFP calculation instantly. That's just Britt, you can add in the other players signed 4 years ago:

Randolph - 5m fee and 2.5m wages - amortised is 1.25 fee + 2.5m = 3.75 off ffp this year
Britt - 15m fee and 2.25m wages - 3.75m + 2.25m = 6m
Fletcher - 6.5m fee and 1m wages - 1.6m + 1m = 2.6m
Howson - 5m fee and 1.25m wages - 1.25m + 1.25m = 2.5m
Braithwaite - 9m fee and 2m wages - 2.25m + 2m = 4.25m
Shotton - 1m wages - 1m
Johnson - 2m fee and 1m wages - 5ook + 1m = 2.5m

That's 21.4m-ish disappearing off our FFP calc. OK we've signed some players and paid a few fees, but they are much smaller. Next season of course, another 21.4m will come off our FFP.

What this shows is just how much we invested and just how badly we performed in those Monk/Pulis years.

If the Bamford, Gibson, Traore money was delivered over 4 years, then our FFP income will not drop until next season, but then the Braithwaite, Randolph, Saville, Morsy (and potentially others) will fill some of that gap.

Still seems to be some cost cutting to do, but you would hope we are not in danger of ffp
 
BoroMart said:
no, the pursuit is about compensation not punishment
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That is not what you and others have posted. It is also not the question I am asking. This is what you said:

"If you compare the punishment they have had to say Bolton or Bury it's absolutely nothing. Bury out of business, Bolton relegation, relegation again and all their players sold off, played a team of kids in League Two. Yet we have Derby who have done much worse think they should hold onto their players and they have been punished enough? Can't figure that out myself, I mean they haven't even received any punishment for the blatant cheating of accounts, they got 12 points for admin and 9 points for FFP breaches, but didn't they fail ffp three times? and didn't they late filing of ffp"

I am not asking about Gibson's motivation (I have already given my view as to why he is pursuing this). My question, and I have asked several times now, is what it is that they have not been punished for. As far as I can tell everything you mention is covered in the Agreed Decision.

Jonny Ingbar said:
I think the whole point of the claim is that Boro (and Wycombe) have been detrimented by Derbys actions ie by virtue of narrowly missing out on a playoff place to them.

All clubs in the division to could obviously argue that they have been detrimented, but I'm sure the basis of Boro's claim is supported by the proximity to Derby, in the final standings. Plus there was one or two players that they signed ahead of us, which adds to our case.

It's clearly a difficult case and any legal advice will not have the benefit of similar cases - I'm sure this will be unchartered waters, legally speaking.

But in simple terms Boro and Wycome are 'victims' of Derbys actions and should be duly compensated for that.
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It is a weak case legally speaking based on what is in the public domain. Almost doomed to failure. That is what makes me think it is about applying maximum leverage to a club on its knees. It feels and looks wrong to me.
 
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TheYorkshireTerrier said:
I seem to be swaying in my thoughts on this every other day.

For every Gibson bashing Derby fan who I have no sympathy for, there is a pure, footballing loving Derby fan who will be absolutely heartbroken to see their club go to the wall.

I would hate for our club to forever be remembered for partially bringing another club down, whether that be factually correct or not, there would be a large group of people who believe so. Even non-Derby fans are getting on this bandwagon right now across social media.

It's never fair that the fans suffer the worst out of these type of situations.
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I'm not remotely swaying my thoughts.
Morris and Derby cheated over a sustained period. Middlesbrough and Wycombe were the most obvious clubs disadvantaged and are entitled to pursue compensation from the cheat.
They committed FFP breaches over losses that will be over multiple seasons when revealed (published accounts for 19, 20 and 21 are not in the public domain) and received a paltry 9 point penalty way after the event.
Morris then chose to run and abandon his sinking ship and put his club in administration. The penalty was applied.
The FFP rules and penalties have proven ridiculously inadequate and the EFL pathetically weak in applying them in a timely way.
New owners are circling over a Derby carcass that actually still has loads of life. The last thing they should get is relief and support to buy the club for a pittance and suddenly become promotion contenders on the cheap.

It is ridiculous that Derby have a chance of staying up after sustained FFP breaches and going into administration; they should already be in League One.
I only hope that Gibson gets the EFL to properly look at Stoke; their cheating in 2020 is on another scale. Over £130m loss in 3 years 18-20 and £88m in 2020 alone. You couldn't make it up.

The cheating has to stop and will only be stopped with stronger, quicker application of tougher, clearer rules and processes.
 
My sympathy is already less since my last post on here....

Just commented about the ticket pricing at UTD on twitter. Almost minutes later 2 Derby fan comments along the lines of 'who cares as you're ruing our club' and 'f*ck Gibson' 😂

I don't want them to go bust. Yet very much want them to go down. I hope we stick 4 past them at the Riverside.
 
TheYorkshireTerrier said:
I seem to be swaying in my thoughts on this every other day.

For every Gibson bashing Derby fan who I have no sympathy for, there is a pure, footballing loving Derby fan who will be absolutely heartbroken to see their club go to the wall.

I would hate for our club to forever be remembered for partially bringing another club down, whether that be factually correct or not, there would be a large group of people who believe so. Even non-Derby fans are getting on this bandwagon right now across social media.

It's never fair that the fans suffer the worst out of these type of situations.
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My thoughts too. I can see how Gibson's actions are being portrayed to Derby fans, and don't want to see any club go into liquidation. It seems to me that Derby are in a right pickle and can't find a buyer because the previous owner over spent, using the club's ground to fund that, so their only assets are players and potential claims make the club a very unattractive package. I don't think Gibson would want to see Derby go to the wall, but wants compensation for Morris's wrong doings. However, we are where we are and surely all parties could get together and agree a compromise which would allow Derby to complete the season, find a buyer, compensate us and Wycombe and strengthen football regulation.
 
People are the same the world over, football fans are no different.
Derby fans love their club just the same as we love ours. They're no different from us.
They didn't make the decisions that left them in this mess, Morris did.
It has happened through no fault of their own. A club with a rich heritage.
Football clubs ARE the fans.... not the owners and players come and go.
I have every sympathy for them.
We've been there, right on the brink, and some of you forget that.
 
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