You're making an awful lot of assumptions there. You don't know me at all. When have I ever said that I didn't care? I do want a Labour government. I just want a proper Labour government. Starmer isn't going to give us that.
I was wrong about starmer
- Thread starter ForssAwakens
- Start date
Laughing
Well-known member
That is not what I was referring to. You said earlier you werent going to vote at all, because you don't like starmer or his disengenous nature. I already explained this.
Read their proposed manifesto, perhaps.
coluka
Well-known member
There is nothing wrong with principles, except when they can lead to self harm of yourself and others.
At the next election, whether anyone likes it or not will be one of Starmer or Sunak (unless tories have another vote). Ask yourself this, who is likely to cause more destruction to my community, my family, my country? The correct answer is Sunak. After another five years of the tories, how easy will it be to see a Dr, Dentist, will you be happy trusting a locum pharmacist who has an interest in making a profit rather than making you better so you don’t need to return to his shop and spend more money?
Who will do more to keep Police on the streets, fireman at their stations, trains running on tracks, teachers in schools, Drs, nurses and dentists retained in the NHS? Who will do the most to ensure you can still access an NHS free at the point of access come 2029 when the country will be a very different place if you make a bad call?
There is nothing wrong having views and strong principles, but to get to where you want to be from the place we all are starting at is never gonna happen overnight. To build a dream house you have to lay a brick, then another and another, it takes time, a lot of effort and never happens in an instant. Politics is a journey and it is a journey you need to take people with you, just saying something will be better isn’t enough, you have to gain peoples trust before they will follow, people do not like major changes, it frightens them, you have to build that trust and make those changes bit by bit so as to enable them to feel comfortable and happy with how things are developing. The alternative is people will stick with the devil they know and you and your principles get taken further away from your preferred destination making it harder to get to where you want to be.
I'm just not a fan of liars. Call me old fashioned if you like, but I prefer a politician that I can trust. I trusted Corbyn and I don't trust Starmer. I probably will vote Labour when it comes down to it. I'll hate myself for doing it, but I will probably do it.
coluka
Well-known member
I understand your view, I did that myself with Corbyn, I never trusted a man who wouldn't give a straight answer about his personal views, I can’t stand artful dodgers and he was one as leader. I still voted Labour despite him as it was the only alternative to a fairer Britain, not perfect but fairer. Did I trust him, never could never will, that ship has now sailed. We all need to move with the options in front of us, not what might have beens or what could be’s
I understand your view too, coluka. We're never going to agree on this. I seem to remember arguing with you about Corbyn on the old board. I wasn't very nice to you at the time and I feel bad about that now. I always trusted Corbyn and I still do trust him. I'll never trust Starmer.
Otto42
Well-known member
He’s certainly moved away from some of Corbyn’s manifesto, but I wouldn’t say that means he’s lied about everything. I think that shows he’s politically astute.
He got elected leader on a 'continuity Corbyn' platform, said that he was fully behind the last manifesto and gave his ten pledges, and he's gone back on every single one of them. I wasn't daft enough to vote for him. I knew that he was an untrustworthy sack of crap. I voted for RLB.
festa5
Well-known member
Fair enough. I don't like Starmer either. I'm probably minded to give him a bit more of the benefit of the doubt than you mind, which I'm sure makes it slightly easier for me.
coluka
Well-known member
No need to feel bad about whats gone before, we all sometimes say things we later regret in the heat of the moment. I understand we’ll not agree and thats fine. I discovered earlier in life that being too principled can lead to you running into all sorts of ill thought through and unanticipated consequences.
An apt quotation I was once told from Abraham Lincoln was “The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion. As our case is new, so we must think anew, and act anew. We must disenthrall ourselves, and then we shall save our country.”
Otto42
Well-known member
That was the electorate he needed to convince. In my view Rebecca Long Bailey proved herself to be lacking and was quickly sidelined. Angela Raynor is much shrewder imho.
The Tories promise the same thing. They're always banging on about how many more nurses and doctors there are. The problem isn't that there aren't enough nurses. The problem is demand is too high because the social care sector isn't working. More nurses is just a sticking plaster in the middle. We need reform of the whole system. We need people to want to be nurses and you do that by making the pay better but he won't even commit to paying them more.
Green technology is just a sound bite. It means giving money to private companies to make a killing off our resources.
Otto42
Well-known member
Fair enough, I think things will be better with a Starmer government than another Tory term I guess you don’t so won’t vote Labour? In our system unless you are in a marginal it doesn’t really matter does it?
I can't tell if that's an insult or not. I'm not sure that you can be 'too principled'. I actually had this conversation with my mam earlier on. She told me that her old manager at the library had said that she was 'too principled' when she was insisting that things should be done in the right way. I think that I get it from her.
coluka
Well-known member
No, it is not an insult at all, far from it. It was a personal comment about my own wrestling with my principles that i faced earlier in my life and helped me see a different path. The quote from Lincoln is something I was made aware of thats all, to back up why sometimes you have to adjust views and principles so as not to be closed to opportunity.
festa5
Well-known member
Is it an argument along the lines of "don't let perfect be the enemy of good".
Voltaire I think.
Yeah that's right, I know the odd intellectual quote.
Relies on a Starmer government being "good" doesn't it. Judging by the rest of the thread even his proponents are mostly saying it only might maybe possibly hopefully be a bit less sh*t!
Otto42
Well-known member
It’ll be better, in my view fairer, than what we’ve had for the last 13 years, so in my opinion that’s good.
I do think it will be better because the Tories are the Tories. I just don't think it will be as good as it can be and only being marginally better is a wasted opportunity.