Labour 10 points ahead of Tories...

It's a tricky one, because people have to realise they did make a stupid mistake and then they have to understand why, because we can't keep making these ghastly errors. If we were all just a little smarter when it came to politics, we would be in a far better place.

We have made the wrong choices more often than the right one over the last 40 years, through ignorance, poor analysis of the causes of problems, poor analysis of the solutions to those problems, short termism, tribalism. The political system in this country exacerbates these faults rather than act as a break on them.

We need FPTP gone, we need a different method of funding parties and we need the media tackling.
I agree to an extent. But even telling people they made a 'stupid mistake' and they 'have to understand' seems so fundamentally wrong to me. The argument as to why a better alternative exists needs to be strengthened i.e. there are some highly intelligent people that voted for brexit (like it or not) and a lot of people had genuine concerns about the EU beyond the simple immigration/racism narrative. For me that's where the remain argument was lost. There was no middle ground. Both sides dealt in extremes and it continues as evidenced by some of the adjectives used on here. If i go on a different forum it will be all about the woke, anti-British etc. etc. It's the same now in the battle for No. 10. At some point, Labour need to draw back from the Tory implosion and hammer home the message to the red wall why they are a better alternative. And it can't just be 'well look at them now - you made a mistake last time, now you're getting a second chance to do the right thing'.
 
Norway are part of Schengen. Now it'll never happen that we join that agreement but I would love it. The Brexitists are obsessed with immigration and stopping FoM. It would be amusing if we still had brexit but restored some of our FoM
Yeah I don't think Schengen is a requisite of that though, but I may be wrong.

We've got a long way to go before that happens, can't even see it happening in my lifetime.
 
Yeah I don't think Schengen is a requisite of that though, but I may be wrong.
As I understand it "Schengen" is simply a freedom of movement agreement you don't have to be a member of the EU to sign up to it and if you are a member you don't have to sign up to it (UK never was a signatory). So Switzerland is a signatory to Schengen but does not belong to the Single Market. So, IIRC, cars can simply drive over the border between Switzerland and an EU country but trucks need to clear Customs. Norway is also in Schengen but in the SM and CU as well.

When we voted to leave the EU if instead of May drawing the red lines immediately afterwards to keep the ERG on her side we could have left the EU and retained CU and SM membership (it would have cost us probably nearly as much as membership but we would be out and it would have kept MOST remainers on side). It would have meant a cross party agreement but power is what the Tories want so the tail wagged the dog.

But compromise was never forthcoming from the "winning side" and we were told we had lost and we should "move on".

Going well aint it...
 
I agree to an extent. But even telling people they made a 'stupid mistake' and they 'have to understand' seems so fundamentally wrong to me. The argument as to why a better alternative exists needs to be strengthened i.e. there are some highly intelligent people that voted for brexit (like it or not) and a lot of people had genuine concerns about the EU beyond the simple immigration/racism narrative. For me that's where the remain argument was lost. There was no middle ground. Both sides dealt in extremes and it continues as evidenced by some of the adjectives used on here. If i go on a different forum it will be all about the woke, anti-British etc. etc. It's the same now in the battle for No. 10. At some point, Labour need to draw back from the Tory implosion and hammer home the message to the red wall why they are a better alternative. And it can't just be 'well look at them now - you made a mistake last time, now you're getting a second chance to do the right thing'.
You are absolutely right GizzaSqueeze. Labour have to appear like a government in waiting rather than the best of a bad bunch. They have to do that whilst appealing to the majority both on a national basis, and more importantly on an individual basis. They are beginning to address that now and have to keep doing that right the way through to the next GE.

Telling a tory voter they didn't vote in their own best interests just wouldn't work.
 
As I understand it "Schengen" is simply a freedom of movement agreement you don't have to be a member of the EU to sign up to it and if you are a member you don't have to sign up to it (UK never was a signatory). So Switzerland is a signatory to Schengen but does not belong to the Single Market. So, IIRC, cars can simply drive over the border between Switzerland and an EU country but trucks need to clear Customs. Norway is also in Schengen but in the SM and CU as well.

When we voted to leave the EU if instead of May drawing the red lines immediately afterwards to keep the ERG on her side we could have left the EU and retained CU and SM membership (it would have cost us probably nearly as much as membership but we would be out and it would have kept MOST remainers on side). It would have meant a cross party agreement but power is what the Tories want so the tail wagged the dog.

But compromise was never forthcoming from the "winning side" and we were told we had lost and we should "move on".

Going well aint it...
My understanding is the same Mutley. Single market and customs union returns, by default, freedom of movement and is the best, overall option at the minute, and would have satisfied everyone I think, other than a small core of anti-europe die-hards.
 
It's a tricky one, because people have to realise they did make a stupid mistake and then they have to understand why, because we can't keep making these ghastly errors. If we were all just a little smarter when it came to politics, we would be in a far better place.

We have made the wrong choices more often than the right one over the last 40 years, through ignorance, poor analysis of the causes of problems, poor analysis of the solutions to those problems, short termism, tribalism. The political system in this country exacerbates these faults rather than act as a break on them.

We need FPTP gone, we need a different method of funding parties and we need the media tackling.
Hit the nail on the head.
 
As I understand it "Schengen" is simply a freedom of movement agreement you don't have to be a member of the EU to sign up to it and if you are a member you don't have to sign up to it (UK never was a signatory). So Switzerland is a signatory to Schengen but does not belong to the Single Market. So, IIRC, cars can simply drive over the border between Switzerland and an EU country but trucks need to clear Customs. Norway is also in Schengen but in the SM and CU as well.

When we voted to leave the EU if instead of May drawing the red lines immediately afterwards to keep the ERG on her side we could have left the EU and retained CU and SM membership (it would have cost us probably nearly as much as membership but we would be out and it would have kept MOST remainers on side). It would have meant a cross party agreement but power is what the Tories want so the tail wagged the dog.

But compromise was never forthcoming from the "winning side" and we were told we had lost and we should "move on".

Going well aint it...
Yeah, that's my understanding too. An open border, effectively no passport checks, which the Brexiters would hate. I'm not sure if there was a limit on the duration people could stay, if they had no work though.

In the SM we still did passport checks with Europe, but were obliged to let EU citizens in due to FOM, so it's almost the same thing. A key difference being I think could still send them back to the EU if they didn't find work (if they were not self supporting). This is a point a lot of brexiters did not understand, we could send immigrants back, we just chose not to record them, or do that.

I might be wrong on the above mind, as I've lost track of the details of that.
 
Hit the nail on the head.
It would get my backing if parties were funded through the public purse, and that alone, based on the number of seats contested on a pro-rata basis, where if a seat is contested, you have to get a certain % of the vote to qualify for that seat stipend to the party.

It would end external interests based on party donations.
 
It would get my backing if parties were funded through the public purse, and that alone, based on the number of seats contested on a pro-rata basis, where if a seat is contested, you have to get a certain % of the vote to qualify for that seat stipend to the party.

It would end external interests based on party donations.
Party donations are just bribes, we all know it. They would be banned in any other industry.

If people want to fund politics it should just go into a pot, and the budget be in line with the voter percentage.

We need the press out of the hands of people and companies who are massively swayed one way or the other also, as this is just like a party donation also. The biggest marketing companies in the UK are our media. I get having media on one side or the other, but we can't have too many on one side, a few in the middle and a tiny amount on the other side as it influences the easily led too much. Or make them publish a bias figure, on their front page, which could be estimated by an independent panel.
 
We need FPTP gone, we need a different method of funding parties and we need the media tackling.

This is really what needs to happen.
In the the last 5-6, especially the last two years the “Good Chaps” idea of government has been totally blown out of the water by the present, rotating leadership crew. There is no restraints on the administration.
They’re are in the process of creating a one party state….and restraining the judiciary from any involvement, in law, of overturning any law which they deem good for the state.
There have been so many things that occurred which couldn’t not have happened if we had.

An encoded constitution
A bill of rights
A Supreme Court overseeing those things
STV voting arrangements. That ensures everybody’s vote, including the lesser parties counts and are represented
Everyone’s allegiance is to that constitution. Not to some family with a big house on the Mall
It’s grown up governance. Our present constitutional arrangements are designed to avoid democracy rather enhance it.
The country always seemingly in the top 3 happiest people in the world stuff…are the Danes.
Last time I looked they had a government containing 9 parties, some in various involvement in coalition.
Our system is very obviously broken…
 
We really do need to see an end to FPTP. In a twisted away I hope that the Tory vote recovers enough that Labour et al realise that we need an electoral pact to defeat the Tories and that is founded on a move to PR. Once we are in PR, yes we will have representation of some pretty abhorrent views (according to your bias choose Communist Party / Socialist Workers Party / UKIP / Reform / BNP) but the Tories will never again be able to govern with less than 50% of the vote.

Neither will Labour. I can live with that because as we see when policies are tested against public opinion most British people are actually more "socialist" than they realise.
 
I see. Like some big light bulb switching on moment where everyone realises they were wrong and you were right. Ok let's see how it goes.
It’s not about me being right. It’s being about it blatantly obvious that Brexit has failed. It’s just so obvious that to still support it now simply is either stupid or ignorant.
 
It’s not about me being right. It’s being about it blatantly obvious that Brexit has failed. It’s just so obvious that to still support it now simply is either stupid or ignorant.
I'm not following SmallTown. We don't have much of an option right now other than to support it as it's the only show in town. The next opportunity to change it would be if we had a labour Government. And then only if they felt inclined to make it a key part of their manifesto. I think they need to but some apparently see that as a risk. And right now I don't know what Kier's intentions are. A few on here are saying he shouldn't tell us. All quite odd.
 
Couple of key things there Chris. 'Hypothetical' and '19-20 January'. Means nothing right now. Lot's of work to be done for any of that to become a reality.

No, the hypothetical part of this poll is other Tory leaders should Johnson get the boot, which shows people don't really care for anyone else either.

Other than that, its a poll on current voting intention which shows Labour wiping out the Tories "red wall" gains in 2019.
 
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