Male Boxers fighting Females in the Olympics

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I don't know all the facts and this is a really good debate.

I think things need to be as simple as possible and I know my direct comments previously in another thread might have offended people when I said 'if you have a Co ck & balls you use male toilets and a vagina female'.

But my view here is the same. If this boxer was born with female genitalia and has lived her life as a female then she should be allowed to box as a female.

Imagine living your life as a girl with no thought to your gender and then being told sorry you can't compete because your naturally occurring chemical make up isnt normal and identifies you as a man. That's awful.

Is it then unfair for a male to fight another male who has naturally higher levels of testosterone? We have weight categories for safety reasons.

Good debate though as I jumped straight on the 'it's a disgrace bandwagon'.
 
TheBoy999 said:
Problem is you can have xy chromosomes, have female sex organs and NOT go through male puberty. With Swyers Syndrome people don't go through any sort of puberty. You couldn't chuck them in a ring with fully developed men.

TBF Khelif isn't rippling in muscle, she's no Anthony Joshua. She's beatable and isn't a concussive puncher. If she was a full man she'd be knocking opponents out left, right and center. I think the hype got to the Italian and she was beaten before she got in the ring.

Atthe end of the day it's not like the East Germans feeding their female athletes male hormones. She was unfortunately born like that.

It's difficult and someone is always going to feel hard done by.
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If I was the IOC I would have just gone with the majority of boxing and not let her participate.
 
I keep reading arguments for her competing likening potential genetic advantage to Michael Phelps etc.
But the argument doesn’t stack up IMO.

The crux of the argument against is that if it’s true that she possesses a Y chromosome, and has undergone male puberty, and has an advantage because of that, that’s unfair.

Now you can call that an arbitrary distinction and genetic luck etc, but if the sport is going to make a clear distinction between male and female then allowing someone to compete in a female field, who has benefited from genetic advantage because they possess male chromosomes, that’s completely against the idea of male and female competitions.

Similarly, the argument that because she’s been beaten x amount of times before means she doesn’t have an advantage is nonsensical.

If we’re going to continue having set competitions based on biological sex (because different sexes perform differently and often being male in this situation confers an advantage) then a serious discussion needs to be had about testing for male genes etc.

I’m aware we don’t have access to the testing undertaken by the IBA, and this isn’t meant as an attack against the person themselves, but the arguments just don’t stack up IMO
 
Johngannonsunderpants said:
I don't know all the facts and this is a really good debate.

I think things need to be as simple as possible and I know my direct comments previously in another thread might have offended people when I said 'if you have a Co ck & balls you use male toilets and a vagina female'.

But my view here is the same. If this boxer was born with female genitalia and has lived her life as a female then she should be allowed to box as a female.

Imagine living your life as a girl with no thought to your gender and then being told sorry you can't compete because your naturally occurring chemical make up isnt normal and identifies you as a man. That's awful.

Is it then unfair for a male to fight another male who has naturally higher levels of testosterone? We have weight categories for safety reasons.

Good debate though as I jumped straight on the 'it's a disgrace bandwagon'.
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It's clear that these boxers are t unbeatable, they'd be mopping all of the titles up, but have they got where they have because of their physical characteristics from testosterone presence rather than their technique?

As you say, an interesting debate and once you read more into it, not a new one.

I'd like women to be given more of a say over this, and maybe they're starting to speak out at last, it's their sphere, yet the debate (including the podcast linked) has generally been between men. Sharon Davies has opened up on it and the Irish boxer too.

Once again men are dictating, on both sides, what women's rights should be.
 
Johngannonsunderpants said:
I don't know all the facts and this is a really good debate.

I think things need to be as simple as possible and I know my direct comments previously in another thread might have offended people when I said 'if you have a Co ck & balls you use male toilets and a vagina female'.

But my view here is the same. If this boxer was born with female genitalia and has lived her life as a female then she should be allowed to box as a female.

Imagine living your life as a girl with no thought to your gender and then being told sorry you can't compete because your naturally occurring chemical make up isnt normal and identifies you as a man. That's awful.

Is it then unfair for a male to fight another male who has naturally higher levels of testosterone? We have weight categories for safety reasons.

Good debate though as I jumped straight on the 'it's a disgrace bandwagon'.
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This is pretty much my take as well.

The anti everything brigade seem to want it both ways -ironically -. They hate people transitioning from one gender to another but also hate anyone born as one gender that had physical characteristics or hormone levels a bit like the other gender. Perhaps hate is the operative word there actually.
 
SilentProf said:
Has she been confirmed anywhere to have XY chromosomes or is it just speculation that the anti trans brigade have jumped on?
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Yes in the IBA testing last year hence being banned from the world championships.
The IBA was stripped of authority over governance issues and the IOC has taken over with more relaxed rules.
IOC's position is they're female on their passports even though Imane possesses the XY chromosome, Imane has competed as a woman all her life and has been beaten by women.
I think the safety of the fighters should trump inclusion it's a dangerous enough sport as it is the IOC has dropped a boll*ck so to speak imo.
 
Nano said:
It's a very difficult situation because even if you fully believe that trans women are equal to women then I think it is fine to think there is a difference between how they are treated at work, in healthcare, education etc and how they are treated in sport. The women's category is one to allow women a chance to compete against each other without men. The obvious solution would be to do away with segregation of any sort but nobody really wants that so there has to be a line drawn somewhere and I think it is fairer for the vast majority of that line is slightly different to how it is in other environments.
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Thats a far too sensible and pragmatic solution for this board, or society in general!!!
 
Wilder Times said:
Yes in the IBA testing last year hence being banned from the world championships.
The IBA was stripped of authority over governance issues and the IOC has taken over with more relaxed rules.
IOC's position is they're female on their passports even though Imane possesses the XY chromosome, Imane has competed as a woman all her life and has been beaten by women.
I think the safety of the fighters should trump inclusion it's a dangerous enough sport as it is the IOC has dropped a boll*ck so to speak imo.
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The details of the testing have never been officially released.

The IBA has had a lot of issues and their responsibility for boxing was removed last year

www.bbc.co.uk

International Boxing Association stripped by International Olympic Committee of status

The International Olympic Committee votes to strip the International Boxing Association of its status as the sport's world governing body.
www.bbc.co.uk
 
My thoughts.

Imagine if you had a daughter, who grew up interested in sport. She took up boxing and really enjoyed it and as time passed, became pretty good at it.

So good in fact that she was in contention to fight for her country in the world’s most prestigious tournament, the Olympics. Imagine the pride that you would have, imagine her excitement.

Suddenly her whole world is shattered when tests show that she has more naturally produced testosterone in her body than an average woman. She’s still allowed by the Olympic ruling body to fight in her category which must have come as a huge relief and then an online campaign turns on her.

Your poor daughter is being called a man on social media… told that she’s a cheat and a misogynist by people that don’t even know her. What would that do to her mental health? I think it would crush your daughter and lead to all manner of outcomes.

Now whether or not people believe she should be allowed to fight in the women’s category or not that is a valid debate…but please don’t call her a man or a cheat or post memes about her, that is cruel ill-informed reactionary behaviour.
 
Nano said:
I've not seen any of the coverage on this other than read some of the commentary on here so I don't know this situation (other than that the 2 have failed genetic tests for other tournaments).

I think there has to be allowance for"genetic freaks". They happen. People like Bolt and Phelps were physically better than others so could dominate. There has to be an equivalent for women but if the only thing that makes a female be better is because they have a hormone imbalance that makes them have male physical traits then it becomes unfair.

Unfortunately I think it is one of those situations where it is more fair on the 99.9% of other women that they are not eligible to compete as a woman than it is to prioritise the 0.01% of edge cases gaining significant advantages. There is no way you can satisfy everyone.
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On average 1 in 15,000 women have Morris syndrome or Swyer syndrome which are now collectively referred to as disorders of sex development (DSD) and it is alledged that there are 2 at the Olympics, so 2 in c.5,250.
On average 1 in 2,600,000 people are over 7ft tall, and there are 7 of them playing basketball at the Olympics, so 7 in c.10,500

Perhaps DSD doesn't convey as much of a sporting advantage as being tall does.
 
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