Meanwhile, in Sweden...

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Alvez_48 said:
Those of a more skeptical nature should check out Peter Hitchens who's been very brave during all of this, to stick his head over the parapet and ask the questions that journalists should but aren't asking.
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Alvez I read a couple of his "ramblings" I find it quite difficult to agree, or even understand his arguments, beyond an erosion of our civil liberties. To be fair, I haven't read everything he has written, so some of it may be relevant and well thought out.
 
Laughing said:
Alvez I read a couple of his "ramblings" I find it quite difficult to agree, or even understand his arguments, beyond an erosion of our civil liberties. To be fair, I haven't read everything he has written, so some of it may be relevant and well thought out.
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I'll come back to you 6 months from now when we have an unprecedented economic crisis..
I'll ask you again, how will we fund the NHS with no tax receipts?
Hitchens' makes completely valid points and his 'ramblings' are intelligently put together despite me disagreeing with his traditional right wing viewpoints.
 
Alvez_48 said:
I'll come back to you 6 months from now when we have an unprecedented economic crisis..
I'll ask you again, how will we fund the NHS with no tax receipts?
Hitchens' makes completely valid points and his 'ramblings' are intelligently put together despite me disagreeing with his traditional right wing viewpoints.
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I follow Hitchens, but I don’t think he makes much sense on this or his drug obsession. He picks minority medical opinion, seems like confirmation bias to me. Maybe you are the same?
 
Alvez_48 said:
I'll come back to you 6 months from now when we have an unprecedented economic crisis..
I'll ask you again, how will we fund the NHS with no tax receipts?
Hitchens' makes completely valid points and his 'ramblings' are intelligently put together despite me disagreeing with his traditional right wing viewpoints.
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I don't argue with any of that Alvez, of course tax reciepts will drop as the economy plummets. I didn't see a single argument from him why isolationsocial distancing doesn't work. He seemed to just spout opinion without much fact based analysis to back it up. But I am sure you knew that's what I meant.
 
I'm currently doing quite a lot of work with Swedes (would have been there on business currently were it not for the lockdown). There is definitely a natural compliance to government instructions (much higher I think that in England). Citizens generally trust the government to do the right thing.

I was last in Malmo just before the UK lockdown, the city was busy during the day but nights were completely dead - this is before IIRC the Swedish government took any action. Talking to bar/restaurant owners it seemed that business had dropped massively, so in essence Swedes had stopped most non-essential activity before they were advised to.
 
Lefty said:
I follow Hitchens, but I don’t think he makes much sense on this or his drug obsession. He picks minority medical opinion, seems like confirmation bias to me. Maybe you are the same?
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Who knows maybe I am.. I'm willing to countenance I'm wrong but the statistics don't point to that currently.

That said 'minority medical opinion' doesn't mean it's wrong either, and I'd argue those minorities are far more intelligent than you or I and the fact is these peoples opinions are not even given a platform to be debated suggests there is something to them.

Where has the opposing argument come from because it is a legitimate one.
Media have been almost completely complicit, opposition government haven't done a thing to provide alternative measures.
 
spanishman said:
I just googled it and picked an article that I thought was relevant. The interesting difference is that the article I quoted showed a range of values for each country.
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Yes, it was a good article. We would need to know more about the methodology behind the chart I linked to.
 
At yesterday afternoon's press conference they were optimistic that they were at the top of the curve. They want to see a continued plateau in admissions but they are hopefull.
Open in chrome for translation.
https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/...R8qeb_mmsxIIcrKnK3XHTJUSE9wKFlewXMVQZhwO9gx1U

My mate has just told me that he personally knows 11 people who had Covid 19. Only one of those eleven was sick enough to be tested for live virus, so only he figures in the country's data for confirmed infections). Only two tested for antibodies subsequently (Carl being one of them) both positive. Basically, any official figures on the number of cases are way off.
 
This is what Anders Tegnell had to say today. Interesting that he's cool with kids sports matches being played as usual. They seem to be in about the same place as they were last week in terms of the numbers of ICU cases, known cases and deaths.

"
Tegnell ends by pointing out the importance of continuing to follow the advice of the National Health Authority on washing hands, staying at home when feeling sick, staying distant and not visiting the elderly.
- It is a problem in preventative work that when things start to go well you relax and stop following the recommendations, he says.
SVT · Felicia Nordlund
21 min10.13
You can play matches in children and youth sports, says Anders Tegnell, provided that the children are healthy and that the congestion does not get so great.
- The risks are small and the seducers are big for these children. But senior matches have to wait for the situation to calm down, he says.

SVT · Felicia Nordlund
24 min7.13
Anders Tegnell says that around one third of all confirmed cases in Stockholm come from elderly housing.

- And just over half of all those who have died in the country come from elderly housing. It is definitely an environment we need to be better at protecting, ”he says.
SVT · Felicia Nordlund
25 min13.6
- Sörmland is the region in Sweden that has the most cases per inhabitant, but even here you can see that it is turning and going down and we can see a similar trend in Uppsala, says Anders Tegnell.

- In the rest of the country it continues to be quite calm, but it is based on our continued caution, he continues.
SVT · Felicia Nordlund
27 min4.13
A little over 600 new cases of infection have been confirmed in the past 24 hours and Sweden now has 12,540 confirmed cases of the corona virus.
- We had expected a rise after the Easter weekend, but we do not see that. We are still at a level we did a couple of weeks ago, says Anders Tegnell, state epidemiologist at the Public Health Authority."

He's very different from what we have. A state epdemiologist ( measured, reasoned, sanguine and apolitical) versus. ... a Health minister/Foreign Secretary etc with, occassional CMO. Early days yet, but there's no sign of the catastrophe that some predicted.
 
Meanwhile in Sweden some good news. 70% of geriatric patients with Covid are surviving, although the elderly do make up the majority of deaths. 80% of ICU patients survive. 40 deaths today ... though disturbing reports of crowded nightclubs over the weekend (which appears to have ***ed Anders Tegnell off a bit). Hospital admissions, confirmed cases and deaths are all at the plateau stage. Tegnell (in line with math modelling predictions) thinks that herd resistance will happen in Stockholm next month.

Oh, and one consequence of the travel restrictions is that the summer workers who arrive from Thailand every year to pick bilberries in the northern forests (big business in Sweden) will not arrive this year, so they are having to ask Swedes to travel from the south to work in the northern forests. Here's a short piece on Swedish national tv which not many of you will understand, but if you want a quick glimpse of the high street in my nearest village up there, here you go (the man featured is opening a Museum of Berry Picking ... to go with the village's other museum ... of hats). Open in chrome for a translation of the text. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/n...8UQKm2WSAhO3DjJ8rnO-FDZYV14h-LfIQ3wpVo7gYD1W4
 
borolad259 said:
Meanwhile in Sweden some good news. 70% of geriatric patients with Covid are surviving, although the elderly do make up the majority of deaths. 80% of ICU patients survive. 40 deaths today ... though disturbing reports of crowded nightclubs over the weekend (which appears to have ***ed Anders Tegnell off a bit). Hospital admissions, confirmed cases and deaths are all at the plateau stage. Tegnell (in line with math modelling predictions) thinks that herd resistance will happen in Stockholm next month.

Oh, and one consequence of the travel restrictions is that the summer workers who arrive from Thailand every year to pick bilberries in the northern forests (big business in Sweden) will not arrive this year, so they are having to ask Swedes to travel from the south to work in the northern forests. Here's a short piece on Swedish national tv which not many of you will understand, but if you want a quick glimpse of the high street in my nearest village up there, here you go (the man featured is opening a Museum of Berry Picking ... to go with the village's other museum ... of hats). Open in chrome for a translation of the text. https://www.svt.se/nyheter/lokalt/n...8UQKm2WSAhO3DjJ8rnO-FDZYV14h-LfIQ3wpVo7gYD1W4
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Looks like all the elderly aren't all making it to hospitals.
Link
 
bear66 said:
Looks like all the elderly aren't all making it to hospitals.
Link
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This is true, and they have said as much. But the same goes for pretty much everywhere, including the UK. As I understand it, they don't move the patient to hospital where they think there is little chance of survival (normal triage decisions is how I've seen it described). What Tegnell does concede is that they have not protected the elderly as well as they should have.
 
borolad259 said:
This is true, and they have said as much. But the same goes for pretty much everywhere, including the UK. As I understand it, they don't move the patient to hospital where they think there is little chance of survival (normal triage decisions is how I've seen it described). What Tegnell does concede is that they have not protected the elderly as well as they should have.
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We seemed to have moved a lot of old folk early on; perhaps poor results stopped that happening.

The anger appears to be based on the strategy being to protect the old and the vulnerable but care home precautions are anecdotally poor.
 
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