Messi looks finished

I think that's only really true for the 1986 World Cup.

He played for Argentina for 17 years, in 8 cups, he wasn't more influential in 7 of them.

For Argentina in cup competitions:

Maradona - 34 appearances, 12 goals (5 in 1986), 8 assists (5 in 1986).
Messi - 56 appearances, 21 goals, 25 assists.

Unless Argentina win it this year, which looks very unlikely right now, he'll always be in the shadow of Maradona for Argentina because of that trophy and that 1986 performance, but I think over their full career it's not really that close.
Maradona has two things over Messi:

Winning a World Cup (and being by far the best player);

Winning a league title with a club who just weren’t fashionable or historically successful.
 
That’s a big statement. Ever is a long time.

There’s already Haaland who looks like he will eclipse Messi’s and Ronaldo’s records.
'records'.

Stats aren't everything. Zidane for me was a better player than Ronaldo, haaland, mbappe etc. His stats won't be close to theirs.

Football seems to be judged on wmstats rather than the joy and what your eyes see these days.

Messi could have scored half of what he has and he is still better than those you've listed. Pure magic over a very long time.

Footballing brain, vision, things no one else does (in the past).

A playmaker, winger, goalscorer, assister, the lot, over a long time.
 
It’s hard because most of us aren’t old enough to have watched Maradona, Pele every week and there’s not enough footage of their club careers.

But having watched as much of Messi as possible during those ridiculous 90 goal seasons at Barca, I think he’s on a different planet to anyone else I’ve seen play the game. Non-stop magic, the highlights don’t do it justice.

If he’s not the best player ever, Maradona and Pele must have been seriously good.
 
Dragged Argentina through that game tonight with a goal from nowhere. Argentina need some of their other players to step up as they have talent, Messi can’t win every game for them.
 
That’s a big statement. Ever is a long time.

There’s already Haaland who looks like he will eclipse Messi’s and Ronaldo’s records.
He would need to score over 30 every season for the next 13 years to match messi, that’s a huge ask
 
Maradona has two things over Messi:

Winning a World Cup (and being by far the best player);

Winning a league title with a club who just weren’t fashionable or historically successful.
Whilst Barcelona are always historically successful, messi has still dragged them to league titles in the past few years. Don’t think people realise just how bad that side actually is and how much of a mess they were in from board to management level
 
what a waste of a debate. using messi's goals to suggest hes better than maradonna is beyond stupid. since messi started playing players are not allowed to tackle. its easy for him. imagine maradonna protection he would be getting these days. he'd be unstoppable. on these modern perfect pitches, defenders scared to foul him. he'd be an absolute beast.
 
what a waste of a debate. using messi's goals to suggest hes better than maradonna is beyond stupid. since messi started playing players are not allowed to tackle. its easy for him. imagine maradonna protection he would be getting these days. he'd be unstoppable. on these modern perfect pitches, defenders scared to foul him. he'd be an absolute beast.
Have you ever watched a game of la liga? Messi certainly hasn’t got much protection throughout his career.

All relative though, 30/40 years ago players generally weren’t in the sort of shape modern players are and it was a far simpler game. Could Maradona have got away with that lifestyle and still been able to compete to that level in todays game? It’s doubtful
 
Have you ever watched a game of la liga? Messi certainly hasn’t got much protection throughout his career.

All relative though, 30/40 years ago players generally weren’t in the sort of shape modern players are and it was a far simpler game. Could Maradona have got away with that lifestyle and still been able to compete to that level in todays game? It’s doubtful
Why its very hard to compare eras.

One of keys to Messi's success is his professionalism and work ethic. You're unlikely to reach the very top without it in today's game. All defenders are elite athletes, none of them "slow" (just sometimes made to look it by elite forwards). You have to be able to match that, no matter how talented you are.

did Maradona have the mentality to be that dedicated? Probably not, but maybe a modern coach could have got through to him? He'd still have been a cracking player on talent alone, but I doubt he'd have reached the same heights.

not that it matters. You can only judge them on the era they played in. Maradona was dominant and brilliant in his era. I'd argue not as dominant and brilliant as Messi in his though.
 
He took them to the final in 1990 as well, no mean achievement, they were rubbish as a team but it is his individual brilliance in the semi against Brazil which genuinely scared the Brazil defence and his brilliant pass to his strike partner that set up the matches only goal. They didn't deserve to win the world cup because overall they were a nasty cheating team but his skill shone out, so add 90 to that list. Don't compare them at intl level Messi doesn't touch Maradona,, I see the stats but Maradona is way above Messi in World Cup lore, Messi is ok but he's nothing on Maradona on his overall impact.

Messi took Argentina to the 2014 final and dragged them to winning the Copa America last year.

Obviously Maradona's going to be above him in World Cup lore, because he won the thing and was a key reason for the fact that they did, nearly moments don't trump trophies.
 
On his performances so far he does look like a shadow of his former self, he’s 35 now and lost his pace but as we saw he’s still capable of a match winning moment.
 
Goal or not, he spent 90 minutes strolling around the edge of the penalty area, he was a luxury and the team was carrying him. He looked like a player returning from his summer holiday in the first friendly.

It’s a shame to see.
Is that not the tactic? Have him save energy and hang around the penalty area to make something happen? He did that with a goal and an assist?
With the games so close together it would be madness to ask him to be tearing around the pitch all game.

In fact I’d rather see Harry Kane adopt this approach for England, think he’d score more goals this tournament.
 
Is that not the tactic? Have him save energy and hang around the penalty area to make something happen? He did that with a goal and an assist?
With the games so close together it would be madness to ask him to be tearing around the pitch all game.

In fact I’d rather see Harry Kane adopt this approach for England, think he’d score more goals this tournament.
Yep people can see what they want about Messi but he still delivers huge moment and as you say that’s probably the right thing to do now at his age. He’s a class act.
 
Whilst Barcelona are always historically successful, messi has still dragged them to league titles in the past few years. Don’t think people realise just how bad that side actually is and how much of a mess they were in from board to management level
Hmm, they won the champions league at the start of his career, well before he was dragging them through anything to be fair.

It’s a totally different scenario to Maradona at Napoli in my opinion.
 
I wouldn't say it was a totally different scenario to Maradona at Napoli, but I'd say Napoli were in a worse state when Maradona went there. than Barcelona when Messi made his Barcelona debut in November 2003

Total Barcelona league titles: 26
1899 to November 2003 (104 years) - 16
Nov 2003 to May 2021 (18 years) - 10

Total Barcelona Champions Leagues/European Titles: 5
1899 to November 2003 (104 years) - 1
Nov 2003 to May 2021 (18 years) - 4

(Note - Barcelona won 4 Cup Winners Cup before it was abolished in 1999).

You could technically argue the first CL they won in 2005/06 was when he was early into his Barcelona career and didn't really play much in the KO stages of the CL, however if he didn't get that hamstring injury against Chelsea in the 2nd leg Quarter Final KO (which ruled him out for the rest of the season), I do believe he would've started most (if not all) of the remaining KO games in the CL.

Still, looking at Barcelona's trophy cabinet for La Liga's & Champions Leagues before and after Messi, and it's remarkable.

Obviously it's not all down to the little magician (just like Napoli's trophy wins during Maradona's time wasn't solely down to him, however, just like Messi, he was, without doubt, the biggest reason for their success), but I'd be very very confident in saying if Messi wasn't there. they'd have not won anywhere near that amount of big trophies.

I obviously left out the big trophies such as FIFA World Cup & Super Cup (which they have won more of, since Messi made his debut) as they all come from winning the Champions League so it's hardly a fair reflection on the previous time before Messi broke into the team.
 
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