Middlesbrough Supporters Forum statement after meeting with Steve Gibson on season card price rise

Perhaps, instead of drawing our own conclusions based on the back of a fag packet - it might be useful to look at the economics of renewable energy [as an example] to cover the huge costs of energy - around the concourses, kitchens, floodlights, health and safety, etc? There may also be a case for retro-fitting different areas of the stadium. Thinking laterally is really important, because the current route is unsustainable. The club would need external support as it is the biggest single venue in the area with crowds bigger than any other community resource.
Mmm.
As a forum we did look into this and had discussions with another club heating their concourses - MFC were very interested and as the stadium was very similar to ours things looked very promising.
Then there were question marks asked about some of the figures supplied.
The club that others including Boro were looking to follow was Derby County. The rest is a very rocky road indeed.
 
As a forum we did look into this and had discussions with another club heating their concourses - MFC were very interested and as the stadium was very similar to ours things looked very promising.
Then there were question marks asked about some of the figures supplied.
The club that others including Boro were looking to follow was Derby County. The rest is a very rocky road indeed.
I think its a really important step Rob: even if it is researching whats already going on out there, to begin with. Forest Green Rovers have a year on year plan, including retro-fitting their stadia to reduce emissions and using natural light in place of expensive lighting. Perhaps the issue of alternatives to hot food might be a consideration too? The cost of running fryers, hot cabinets and heaters is phenomenal. Its just little things which can feed into a much bigger benefit to the club. I`m all for it, if us individual fans can add our help(y)

 
you also have to take into account how much they have spent on players, accedemy, including settling and awarding new contracts, paying wages and transfer fees out as well as how long its taken for the buying clubs to pay them fees, and when we have had to pay fees out for purchases past and present. a profit on a transfer fee does not always mean we are fully recovering all our wages and transfer money spent, as its easy to just look and go we paid 10m for this player and sold for 15m so we 5m up,
but we may have paid that player 3m during his time at the club and had to pay them 1m to pay the contract off, then have pay vat on transfers as well at 20% also. which would result in a loss over all.

then factor in players we buy that contracts expire without sale, must of spent circa 20m on brit alone with no recovery for example.
Of course, thanks. The fee is the tip of the iceberg, many decent points raised. You need to take into account all the costs you have listed, however the costs associated with the development and all other associated costs with Tav for instance will have already been accounted for in previous accounts.

I should probably know the answer to this, and I suspect the answer is yes, but are transfer fees subject to tax?

If we spend £15 million on player, we spend £15 million, but if we sell a player for £15 million, I assume a chunk of that goes in tax?

That's correct, unless we buy from abroad, where we don't pay VAT however exchange rate fluctuations come into play!
 
I think its a really important step Rob: even if it is researching whats already going on out there, to begin with. Forest Green Rovers have a year on year plan, including retro-fitting their stadia to reduce emissions and using natural light in place of expensive lighting. Perhaps the issue of alternatives to hot food might be a consideration too? The cost of running fryers, hot cabinets and heaters is phenomenal. Its just little things which can feed into a much bigger benefit to the club. I`m all for it, if us individual fans can add our help(y)
I know it is something Helena Bowman is very much battling with as CEO of the Riverside.
I think you are right it is up to us to raise these issues not just with the club but maybe even more importantly to convince the fans that we need to act in this way.
I said before Roofie - the biggest part of a football club's carbon footprint is through home fans cars. I suppose we could look to try and bring in our own match day car share plan.
 
I know it is something Helena Bowman is very much battling with as CEO of the Riverside.
I think you are right it is up to us to raise these issues not just with the club but maybe even more importantly to convince the fans that we need to act in this way.
I said before Roofie - the biggest part of a football club's carbon footprint is through home fans cars. I suppose we could look to try and bring in our own match day car share plan.
The best example so far has been the Club bus from East Cleveland on match days (y)
 
I should probably know the answer to this, and I suspect the answer is yes, but are transfer fees subject to tax?

If we spend £15 million on player, we spend £15 million, but if we sell a player for £15 million, I assume a chunk of that goes in tax?
It depends what the book value is of that player.
If we sign a player for £4m on a 4 year contract, his book value is £2m after 2 years of his contract. If he is then sold for £5m, then the Club has made a Profit from the Sale of Player Registration of £3m. This is added to Operating Profit that year to become EBIT.
Interest/other financial costs are then accounted for before Tax is applied to the Earnings.
There is no straight Capital Gains Tax applied on that player I don't believe. In that respect it is like other Operating Income, just lower on the P&L.

Usually the Profit from player sales offsets other Operating losses before tax is applied. In this Operating Loss example, the Club would pay no tax on the profit from sale of the player, as they have made no overall profit.
If the Club had made an Operating profit pre Player Trading then this sale would just increase Operating Profit. The Club would then effectively pay Corporation Tax on the profit from player sales.
Best to sell players to offset losses as you avoid paying tax on the profit from sale.

If the player was a completely useless **** and signed for £15m on a 4 year contract, then after 2 years his book value would be just £7.5m. If nobody would pay a fee for the player over £7.5m then there could be no profit on sale of his registration. If he is sold for less then the loss is recorded as a Transfer loss not profit in the same way.
Clubs will sometimes write down the book value of a player by taking a bigger hit in that financial year. They will take the usual amortisation hit, but then an additional Impairment charge if they can afford it/or it suits. This reduces the book value of the player and the future burden of amortisation.

If a player signs a new contract while he still has years left of amortisation against his initial fee, then the outstanding book value can then be amortised fully over the length of his new contract. This is what will have happened with McNair and Howson who signed new contracts before their initial fee had been fully amortised. It effectively write the initla fee off over the combined length of his contracts. Howson has been here 6 years, hence his £5m fee will have been amortised over 6 years. This is very helpful for FFP.
I'd hope this happens too with the likes of Akpom, McGree etc.

Players who are Home produced, or signed on Frees have no Book Value and so any sale at any time is pure profit as is the case with Tavernier and Spence.
 
Of course, thanks. The fee is the tip of the iceberg, many decent points raised. You need to take into account all the costs you have listed, however the costs associated with the development and all other associated costs with Tav for instance will have already been accounted for in previous accounts.



That's correct, unless we buy from abroad, where we don't pay VAT however exchange rate fluctuations come into play!
I have some figures on that..
Djed Spence was sold for £12m
Marcus Tavernier - £10m

Djed's fee was divided into three £4m instalments.
Tav's was four £2.5m instalments.

Total received this year was £6.5m.

Outgoings this year: -

Hoppe £800k
McGree - £1.5m
Clarke - £1.5m
Forss - £1.5m
Crooks - £400k
Barlaser - £500
Loan fees £1.250m

Transfer levy paid to the FA of 5% of transfer fees £310k

Total cost of incoming players - £7,750 000
Transfer deficit this season - £1 260 000

Capital gains tax bill in coming season ot two on Tav and Djed of potentially - £4.4m
 
I have some figures on that..
Djed Spence was sold for £12m
Marcus Tavernier - £10m

Djed's fee was divided into three £4m instalments.
Tav's was four £2.5m instalments.

Total received this year was £6.5m.

Outgoings this year: -

Hoppe £800k
McGree - £1.5m
Clarke - £1.5m
Forss - £1.5m
Crooks - £400k
Barlaser - £500
Loan fees £1.250m

Transfer levy paid to the FA of 5% of transfer fees £310k

Total cost of incoming players - £7,750 000
Transfer deficit this season - £1 260 000

Capital gains tax bill in coming season ot two on Tav and Djed of potentially - £4.4m
would we not get around the gains by spending on other players, have a wage bill as well that I think the transfers is paying towards also
love taking a peek behind the scenes on stuff like this, fascinating seeing actual numbers etc, FA must be making a mint on them fees, like the biggest paid agent of them all lol

£16m to come from chelsea's january window to come in alone wow
 
It depends what the book value is of that player.
If we sign a player for £4m on a 4 year contract, his book value is £2m after 2 years of his contract. If he is then sold for £5m, then the Club has made a Profit from the Sale of Player Registration of £3m. This is added to Operating Profit that year to become EBIT.
Interest/other financial costs are then accounted for before Tax is applied to the Earnings.
There is no straight Capital Gains Tax applied on that player I don't believe. In that respect it is like other Operating Income, just lower on the P&L.

Usually the Profit from player sales offsets other Operating losses before tax is applied. In this Operating Loss example, the Club would pay no tax on the profit from sale of the player, as they have made no overall profit.
If the Club had made an Operating profit pre Player Trading then this sale would just increase Operating Profit. The Club would then effectively pay Corporation Tax on the profit from player sales.
Best to sell players to offset losses as you avoid paying tax on the profit from sale.

If the player was a completely useless **** and signed for £15m on a 4 year contract, then after 2 years his book value would be just £7.5m. If nobody would pay a fee for the player over £7.5m then there could be no profit on sale of his registration. If he is sold for less then the loss is recorded as a Transfer loss not profit in the same way.
Clubs will sometimes write down the book value of a player by taking a bigger hit in that financial year. They will take the usual amortisation hit, but then an additional Impairment charge if they can afford it/or it suits. This reduces the book value of the player and the future burden of amortisation.

If a player signs a new contract while he still has years left of amortisation against his initial fee, then the outstanding book value can then be amortised fully over the length of his new contract. This is what will have happened with McNair and Howson who signed new contracts before their initial fee had been fully amortised. It effectively write the initla fee off over the combined length of his contracts. Howson has been here 6 years, hence his £5m fee will have been amortised over 6 years. This is very helpful for FFP.
I'd hope this happens too with the likes of Akpom, McGree etc.

Players who are Home produced, or signed on Frees have no Book Value and so any sale at any time is pure profit as is the case with Tavernier and Spence.
when I was referring to profit (although know you wasn't replying to me) I just meant over the full length of their contract and all costs involved, as many people just look at transfer fee's and think wow made some money there, but never seem to take wages and any other costs into account along with any other costs people don't realise the club has to pay out on that never get disclosed publicly
 
would we not get around the gains by spending on other players, have a wage bill as well that I think the transfers is paying towards also
love taking a peek behind the scenes on stuff like this, fascinating seeing actual numbers etc, FA must be making a mint on them fees, like the biggest paid agent of them all lol

£16m to come from chelsea's january window to come in alone wow
Oh yes of course the FA will make so much out of Chelsea. And then through the FA Cup a lot filters through to all levels of football.
 
I have some figures on that..
Djed Spence was sold for £12m
Marcus Tavernier - £10m

Djed's fee was divided into three £4m instalments.
Tav's was four £2.5m instalments.

Total received this year was £6.5m.

Outgoings this year: -

Hoppe £800k
McGree - £1.5m
Clarke - £1.5m
Forss - £1.5m
Crooks - £400k
Barlaser - £500
Loan fees £1.250m

Transfer levy paid to the FA of 5% of transfer fees £310k

Total cost of incoming players - £7,750 000
Transfer deficit this season - £1 260 000

Capital gains tax bill in coming season ot two on Tav and Djed of potentially - £4.4m
Fascinating to get these figures given everything has been undisclosed for so long now. Good to see the Tav/Spence money being played over the medium term.

Just goes to show how far out reports of fees for certain strikers over the summer would have been.
 
do we pay up front for all our players? as would expect the figures are staggered the same as ones received are too.
and if so there is previous purchases to go with them figures also to make them like for like, unless we pay up front in full all the time then they would be right

Those are staggered figures.

We signed Crooks a year ago.
 
It depends what the book value is of that player.
If we sign a player for £4m on a 4 year contract, his book value is £2m after 2 years of his contract. If he is then sold for £5m, then the Club has made a Profit from the Sale of Player Registration of £3m. This is added to Operating Profit that year to become EBIT.
Interest/other financial costs are then accounted for before Tax is applied to the Earnings.
There is no straight Capital Gains Tax applied on that player I don't believe. In that respect it is like other Operating Income, just lower on the P&L.

Usually the Profit from player sales offsets other Operating losses before tax is applied. In this Operating Loss example, the Club would pay no tax on the profit from sale of the player, as they have made no overall profit.
If the Club had made an Operating profit pre Player Trading then this sale would just increase Operating Profit. The Club would then effectively pay Corporation Tax on the profit from player sales.
Best to sell players to offset losses as you avoid paying tax on the profit from sale.

If the player was a completely useless **** and signed for £15m on a 4 year contract, then after 2 years his book value would be just £7.5m. If nobody would pay a fee for the player over £7.5m then there could be no profit on sale of his registration. If he is sold for less then the loss is recorded as a Transfer loss not profit in the same way.
Clubs will sometimes write down the book value of a player by taking a bigger hit in that financial year. They will take the usual amortisation hit, but then an additional Impairment charge if they can afford it/or it suits. This reduces the book value of the player and the future burden of amortisation.

If a player signs a new contract while he still has years left of amortisation against his initial fee, then the outstanding book value can then be amortised fully over the length of his new contract. This is what will have happened with McNair and Howson who signed new contracts before their initial fee had been fully amortised. It effectively write the initla fee off over the combined length of his contracts. Howson has been here 6 years, hence his £5m fee will have been amortised over 6 years. This is very helpful for FFP.
I'd hope this happens too with the likes of Akpom, McGree etc.

Players who are Home produced, or signed on Frees have no Book Value and so any sale at any time is pure profit as is the case with Tavernier and Spence.

Thanks,
very comprehensive answer.
 
OAPS represent - 2 849 of the concessions.
The remainder are younger concession groups - fans of the future.
This all totals at just over 19000 total - so am supposing we have about 100 corporate. They must be regarded as a separate income item.
In the recent supporter's forum meeting minutes LF stated we have over 20,000 season card holders. How does that tally with just over 19000 ?
 
Fascinating to get these figures given everything has been undisclosed for so long now. Good to see the Tav/Spence money being played over the medium term.

Just goes to show how far out reports of fees for certain strikers over the summer would have been.
I think it also shows why we haven’t had massive spend on players given the money js being paid over 4 years
 
is someone really saying that ground improvements, a new pitch, further development of infrastructure at Hurworth etc and so on and so forth come under FFP - Those are the investments and running costs that are deducted from FFP - my understanding of the rules are that In order to promote investment in stadia, training facilities, youth development and women’s football, such costs are excluded from break-even calculations.


one things for sure, those Railway Workers, Nurses, School Teachers, Civil Servants, Firefighters, University staff, Postal Workers, Bus Drivers, Ambulance workers, DVLA, Border Security etc etc etc had best get an above rate of inflation when football club owners are calling it at ABOVE 10% - or else football will be in the deepest of clarts.

in terms of sustainability and control of environment advantage there are a few natural resources that the football club can exploit - we are adjacent to a flowing tidal river and are situated on one of the windiest locations on these islands (both riverside & hurworth) the message is clear utilise it to move towards self sufficiency for power - or stay a hostage to greedy capitalist shareholders who can never be financially satisfied or have their greed appeased.

as for wasting expensive resources on hot food at the riverside - Urgggh!

and bring back standing, its so much warmer for the fans, and will/can increase capacity - without the need to keep replacing freezing cold seats and having people sat on their @rses getting heart disease by being sedentary & stuffing their face with pies n pasties - we do so much around education and the community with hospital visits and then serve up absolute food hell when we have our games and pull in plus 20,000 sized crowds, the message and damage being done is appalling - the club should be encourage the fans to bring their own food and preparing places in the concourse for them to eat it - kick out the heart attack special vendors, with the costs of a ticket going up, removal of overpriced stodge is a win-win for both club and fan..
the club will be calling it 10% because that is what minimum wage is going up by, I would assume living wage the same percentages

yes spending on them areas does not count towards your FFP allowance but it still needs to be paid and counts in your accounts, the tax man dont cut you any slack if your paying in these areas so it does count to your profit and loss.

but they have separate calculations for FFP where these amounts are excluded from their FFP budgets of how much money a club is allowed to loose a season. otherwise a club buying a new stadium wouldn't be able to buy players for example for several years due to FFP.

but the flip side is because youth is not covered many of englands more elite clubs are dominating the youth markets as they can sign as many as they want and hoard them until they either **** or get off the pot when deciding what to do with them. the whole cost is off the FFP books and its why some clubs have mental amount of these players out on loan (making more income towards FFP for the loans), while trying to see if they good enough or trying to make some revenue to increase their FFP allowances from loan and transfer fees, which I do not believe fall inside the FFP calculation in a postive value and the costs in having them on the books upto a certain age is not included as a negative from FFP allowances.

they are not going to encourage fans to bring their own food instead of buying from them lol. they could offer some healthier alternatives, when I've been I've never seen any cold sandwiches for example, a sandwich bar be a good place to start but think the food offered has always been typical and what is expected at football matches, always gonna be usually fast take away options, epically when people are having pints of beer as well, be like going out to the pub and then going to the take aways for sandwiches and salads, people drinking dont tend to want that food very much lol
 
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Have the supporters forum critiqued these figures and claims at all or they been blindly accepted? On the outside it just appears that the supporters forum are being used to add weight to the clubs sell of the increase.
 
Rob I think you are mixing up terms.
The £22m transfer fees for Spence and Tavernier are pure profit THIS financial year and will be shown as such in the P&L. The £6.5m you refer to has cashflow, not profit ramifications only.
The costs you quote are mixing amortisation charges and outgoing cash payments.
A player’s transfer fee is amortised over the length of a contract, this is not the same as the payment schedule agreed between the clubs. Amortisation is an expense in the P&L and is accounting practise; the payment schedule is by negotiation and impacts Cash Flow not the P&L.
Clubs don’t pay Capital Gains Tax on footballers they pay Corporation Tax on the proceeds of trading them versus their amortised book value.
There is no book value for Tavernier or Spence, so their sale will be in THIS year's books as the asset (registration) is no longer owned by Boro. There is no Capital Gains Tax payable on these intangible assets.
IF there is a Nett profit before tax made by the club, then the club will be due Corporation Tax on that residual Nett Profit before Tax.
In reality the club will not make much of a profit this season even with this extraordinary £22m profit from sales.
So no tax will be paid on the proceeds of sale of Spence and Tavernier.
 
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