Redwurzel
Well-known member
Antony Beevor is a famous writer and ex British Miltary officer- solid British estbalishment. He started writing about the battle of Stalingrad then battle of Berlin, but what he discovered from that alot of the WW2 on the Eastern Front was a continuation of the very bloody Russian Civil War 1918-21. The communist clearly won that war, but Ukraine was the last stand of the Whites who were anti communist forces formed from a mixture of Tsarists, Ukrainian nationalists, Cossacks,
(and to begin with, Poles, Czechs, British, French, Americans interventionist troops) all according to Beevor. These past events do leave a legacy of mistrust and hatred . In the 1920s Stalin collectivised most farms i.e. nationlised farming in Ukraine which led to famines and created a hatred of Russian communists at the time amongst many Ukrainians, particularly former farm owners
In WW2 many in the Baltic States and Ukraine had in fact fought with the Germans or at least supported them, some saw the Germans as liberators. So among the 20 to 27 million dead, were Soviet citizens fighting for the Germans or often Jewish citizens killed in effective 1940s pogroms, often by the local population, egged on by the Germans (see the prize winning book "Hitler's Willing Executioneers"). Many Germans and their supporters saw the Jewish population as working hand in hand with the communists (not true but this was what believed, possibly pointing to Trotsky (Jewish) and Marx (Jewish) as evidence), There are legacies today of what happened in the period 1918 to 1945 and through Russian and Ukrainian histories before that - on both sides.
The history of Ukraine (modern boundaries) from what I know is different to many of the nations of Eastern Europe. who say were fully independent nations for considerable periods. Poland in fact dominated most of modern day Ukraine for 300 years and was at war with the local population of Cossacks and later Cossacks allied with Russians.
See Hollywood film
en.wikipedia.org
Odessa a major port in modern Ukraine and was founded by Catherine the Great of Russia. In 2015 her stature was removed by the Ukrainian Government. Hence I tend to use the word complex to describe the area covered by the modern boundaries of Ukraine. To a British person I would say think of the island of Ireland.
Ref Donbass offering a wealth of minerals - I think its more like South Wales now, its days as a mineral powerhouse have passed, It was famed for its coal and steel, but that peaked many years ago.
There are quite a lot of subjective opinions on this thread. For example statement like NATO is a defensive organisation.... was invading Iraq and Afganistan a defensive move? NATO can be defensive and aggressive - its there primarily to serve the interests of its members. In the two wars mentioned NATO troops went in to non NATO countries to remove a perceived threat.
As said for the last 2 years the way forward to stop the war is to do some negotiating, otherwise I can't see it ever finishing or even worse it starting a bigger conflict.
(and to begin with, Poles, Czechs, British, French, Americans interventionist troops) all according to Beevor. These past events do leave a legacy of mistrust and hatred . In the 1920s Stalin collectivised most farms i.e. nationlised farming in Ukraine which led to famines and created a hatred of Russian communists at the time amongst many Ukrainians, particularly former farm owners
In WW2 many in the Baltic States and Ukraine had in fact fought with the Germans or at least supported them, some saw the Germans as liberators. So among the 20 to 27 million dead, were Soviet citizens fighting for the Germans or often Jewish citizens killed in effective 1940s pogroms, often by the local population, egged on by the Germans (see the prize winning book "Hitler's Willing Executioneers"). Many Germans and their supporters saw the Jewish population as working hand in hand with the communists (not true but this was what believed, possibly pointing to Trotsky (Jewish) and Marx (Jewish) as evidence), There are legacies today of what happened in the period 1918 to 1945 and through Russian and Ukrainian histories before that - on both sides.
The history of Ukraine (modern boundaries) from what I know is different to many of the nations of Eastern Europe. who say were fully independent nations for considerable periods. Poland in fact dominated most of modern day Ukraine for 300 years and was at war with the local population of Cossacks and later Cossacks allied with Russians.
See Hollywood film
Taras Bulba (1962 film) - Wikipedia
Odessa a major port in modern Ukraine and was founded by Catherine the Great of Russia. In 2015 her stature was removed by the Ukrainian Government. Hence I tend to use the word complex to describe the area covered by the modern boundaries of Ukraine. To a British person I would say think of the island of Ireland.
Ref Donbass offering a wealth of minerals - I think its more like South Wales now, its days as a mineral powerhouse have passed, It was famed for its coal and steel, but that peaked many years ago.
There are quite a lot of subjective opinions on this thread. For example statement like NATO is a defensive organisation.... was invading Iraq and Afganistan a defensive move? NATO can be defensive and aggressive - its there primarily to serve the interests of its members. In the two wars mentioned NATO troops went in to non NATO countries to remove a perceived threat.
As said for the last 2 years the way forward to stop the war is to do some negotiating, otherwise I can't see it ever finishing or even worse it starting a bigger conflict.
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