Separating the art from the artist

The_Lizards_Jumpers

The_Lizards_Jumpers

Well-known member
The death of Phil Spector at the weekend got me thinking a bit more about how easy it is to separate a body of work from the person who created it.

I struggle with it a little, but which artists do you dislike / detest their personalities, but actually appreciate the work they produced ?

Morrissey - Or rather The Smiths, who I used to adore and still do to some extent. It helps that the rest of them are decent blokes and have distanced themselves from his recent comments, although having said that even looking back to some of the statements he made 20 + years ago are a little close to the bone (the scorn he poured on reggae as an example).

Van Morrison - I love some of his early work, especially Veedon Fleece, but as a individual he comes across as intensely dislikable.

John Lennon - Whilst not a obsessive fan of The Beatles I really dislike John Lennon as a person, and I must say it really annoys me how people seem to have turned him into some sort of saint since his death. Again the rest of the band seem decent (especially Paul) which makes it easier to appreciate their work, as well as their cultural impact.
 
Van Morrison has also expressed some fairly objectionable views on the pandemic. Him and Clapton.
 
I went to see Van Morrison at the Town Hall the night before George Best funeral and although his music was brilliant, his attitude on the stage was awful. You could see he didn't want to be there and couldn't wait to get off stage. I understand that his mate was getting buried the next day, but he wold have been better cancelling than putting the performance on he did.

I'm also not a lover of Lennon the man or McCartney, but their music is brilliant.
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
The death of Phil Spector at the weekend got me thinking a bit more about how easy it is to separate a body of work from the person who created it.

I struggle with it a little, but which artists do you dislike / detest their personalities, but actually appreciate the work they produced ?

Morrissey - Or rather The Smiths, who I used to adore and still do to some extent. It helps that the rest of them are decent blokes and have distanced themselves from his recent comments, although having said that even looking back to some of the statements he made 20 + years ago are a little close to the bone (the scorn he poured on reggae as an example).

Van Morrison - I love some of his early work, especially Veedon Fleece, but as a individual he comes across as intensely dislikable.

John Lennon - Whilst not a obsessive fan of The Beatles I really dislike John Lennon as a person, and I must say it really annoys me how people seem to have turned him into some sort of saint since his death. Again the rest of the band seem decent (especially Paul) which makes it easier to appreciate their work, as well as their cultural impact.
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I was a big Morrissey fan as well and I suppose I turned a blind eye for as long as I could. I wont listen to him now (including his work in The Smiths) at all, to the extent that I've deleted him from playlists.
 
Paterson said:
I was a big Morrissey fan as well and I suppose I turned a blind eye for as long as I could. I wont listen to him now (including his work in The Smiths) at all, to the extent that I've deleted him from playlists.
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But what about Marr, Joyce and Rourke who were as instrumental to The Smiths sound as Morrissey was ?
 
My line is Michael Jackson. I loved him, but I can't listen to him now and it amazes me that he's still played in shops and pubs etc.

Morrissey - so he votes the wrong way, not like he's a paedophile. I've got mates who do the same but it doesn't stop me listening to them play the guitar or whatever. I did go through a bit of a 'not sure' phase when he spoke up about Tommy Robinson but I think I've concluded that Morrissey will do/say anything if it annoys the mainstream media. He's basically an old school punk and will probably always be regardless of the world changing around him.

Why do you dislike Lennon @The_Lizards_Jumpers?
 
Ryan Adams is one where I've had to have a rethink and step away from following all the allegations and reports on his behaviour. Although he was always a bit of an **** in interviews/reports and capable of incredible self congratulation there were enough songs and great gigs to shrug it off. However, following what's come out, its hard not to listen to his music without hearing it through the prism of an over controlling, needy, narcissist constantly feeling sorry for himself and bitter of others.

I know he was recently cleared of the worst of the accusations but he leaves me cold now.

Fleetwood Mac has always been full of dreadful people, but you can't knock their greatest hits list.

Having a think about it, as a rule I tend not to like the music if I don't like the person/people behind it.
 
atypical_boro said:
Why do you dislike Lennon @The_Lizards_Jumpers?
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To be honest I cant decide between the wife beating, the child cruelty towards Julian or the hypocrisy of the whole “imagine no possessions” lark, despite being a multi-millionaire, living in a upper West side apartment and driving a Rolls Royce , or the "imagine no religion” despite the fact he couldn’t get enough of every spiritual and New Age fad which bounced down the line, including Hindu meditation, I-Ching, and various incarnations of astrology.

What I think are more annoying are the people who hold him up as some sort of modern day saint despite the fact that he was a mess of a human (which to be fair he did acknowledge he was) and will argue against any slight on "Saint John".

That's before we even dip into things like his alleged involvement in the death of Stuart Sutcliffe, or his kicking Yoko Ono in the stomach causing her to miscarry (which are more rumors than facts, unlike the above).
 
Separating the art from the artist is made easier or harder depending on the level of misdemeanour(s) or crime! I've found myself not listening Ryan Adams anymore which still feels strange as I was a massive fan of his. Yet, plenty of people are raving about his latest album still referring to him as a genius as if nothing has happened. It seems that as long as the choruses and verses are in the right order lots of people will forgive most things! Particularly sleazy individual, can't see myself going back to his music.

Interesting that Ariel Pink has just been dropped by his label and abandoned by many of his followers for ...voting for Trump and attending the Trump rally in Washington the other week! He didn't take part in the riot, just attended the rally. As a result he's effectively been 'cancelled'!
 
Must admit to similar abandonment of all Morrissey's work. It's not just a case of "how he votes". His beliefs are pretty much in line with Naziism. I also have a friend who met him before fame and she confirms he was always a **** with fascistic leanings.

He's pretty much the only one I can't separate really. Whether Kate Bush for instance votes Tory or not, I couldn't care less, I'll always love her work.
 
I think Lennon and to an extent Morrissey are in the grey area, you can overlook some of their failings if you are a complete diehard fan. I have some sympathy with Lennon, I don't think anyone before or since has experiences what it was to be a "Beatle" in the 60s. They were an extraordinary cultural phenomenon. "Bigger than Jesus". Morrissey, I'm never quite sure whether he is trolling or expounding deeply held beliefs. Either way I don't like him or his music so it's an easy Foxtrot Oscar from me.

Van Morrison seems rather to have cracked under the current pandemic? Clapton far from being "God" is just another arshole. I doubt though that he is as racist as some might want you to think he did the "Enoch was right" thing but for many years worked with many black musicians.

Where there can be no doubt then what do we do with the legacy of likes of Phil Spector? The Christmas Album is a wonder, his influence on the likes of Springsteen is there for all to see. Do we stop listening to "Frosty the Snowman" or just simply remove his name from it?
LeftBanke said:
Interesting that Ariel Pink has just been dropped by his label and abandoned by many of his followers for ...voting for Trump
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I know it has happened the other way round with fans "cancelling" artists who have been anti-Trump and throwing out their art/music.

And then there are artists like Joe Strummer, who once refused to allow the Pistols to use the Clash's instruments when Malcolm Mclaren bedecked Sid, Johnny et al in Nazi Regalia. A good guy and a proper rock n roll hero. I hope no one ever unearths footage of him dressed as Mussolini now...
 
The_Lizards_Jumpers said:
To be honest I cant decide between the wife beating, the child cruelty towards Julian or the hypocrisy of the whole “imagine no possessions” lark, despite being a multi-millionaire, living in a upper West side apartment and driving a Rolls Royce , or the "imagine no religion” despite the fact he couldn’t get enough of every spiritual and New Age fad which bounced down the line, including Hindu meditation, I-Ching, and various incarnations of astrology.

What I think are more annoying are the people who hold him up as some sort of modern day saint despite the fact that he was a mess of a human (which to be fair he did acknowledge he was) and will argue against any slight on "Saint John".

That's before we even dip into things like his alleged involvement in the death of Stuart Sutcliffe, or his kicking Yoko Ono in the stomach causing her to miscarry (which are more rumors than facts, unlike the above).
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I think its fair to say that up until at least the mid-70s he was a deeply troubled individual, with some very major flaws and hypocrisy. I'm sure you're aware of his upbringing etc that surely contributed massively towards them, not that they are an excuse for some of his behaviours. I'm not sure he killed Stuart Sutcliffe mind, a bit of a conspiracy theory that one, or certainly not provable that a fight years earlier caused him to haemorrhage years later.

I think you've got your Yoko stories mixed up. He allegedly kicked Yoko when pregnant with Sean, but Sean was born in 1975. They had miscarriages before, one of which was blamed on the stress of a drugs bust. So not quite what you're insinuating.

I think the guy who was shot in 1980 was a very different person, who would have never wanted to be remembered as a saint, acknowledged most of his shortcomings and failures, and certainly didn't 'believe' everything he wrote in Imagine. "It's only a bloody song" I think was the quote. In many ways, sad that he was killed so shortly after acknowledging most of his problems and beginning to put them right, including his rift with Paul. He was only 40 after all, slightly older than me.

What is even sadder, is that his killer is still walking around scot-free, writing novels and making millions in royalties.

lennonmurdertruth.com

The truth about John Lennon's murder. By Steve Lightfoot - Home

The truth about John Lennon's murder reveals government codes, killer's face and true identity - Mark Chapman, Nixon, Reagan, and Stephen King conspiracy.
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HarryVegas said:
Must admit to similar abandonment of all Morrissey's work. It's not just a case of "how he votes". His beliefs are pretty much in line with Naziism. I also have a friend who met him before fame and she confirms he was always a **** with fascistic leanings.

He's pretty much the only one I can't separate really. Whether Kate Bush for instance votes Tory or not, I couldn't care less, I'll always love her work.
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Can't honestly say I've ever come across shades of Nazism from him. Admittedly I've never met him, but I think you'd have to know someone pretty well to conclude that unless they wore it as a badge of honour.
 
Appreciate you taking time to reply, but Lennon fans always have a ready made excuse for him - whether it's the upbringing (in a pretty middle class set up, not the working class one he claimed) or the fact that in later years he changed a bit and "acknowledged most of his shortcomings and failures" which to many seems to be this get out of jail free card.

I don't think you and I are going to agree, as you're obviously as big a fan as I'm not.
 
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