Starmers motion to bar Corbyn being Labour Candidate

Jonny Ingbar said:
I think that a more centrist Labour only ever have a realistic chance at success, as history has proven - do you not agree?

Do you not think a more moderate Labour would be an infinitely better government than the current Tory catastrophe?
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Centrist and moderate are not the same thing. Again you really need to start defining what you mean by the terms you use or there is no room for debate.

Corbyn's manifesto was moderate by any reasonable measure. Therefore the answer to your second question is a resounding yes.

A Starmer led Labour on the other hand is looking more and more like being a catastrophe for both the country and the left.
 
1finny said:
Exiled - It's simple not true to say Starmer is the only one creating division.
There is a left wing twitter feed that sends out a daily offensive against Starmer.
Many of those who support momentum confront Starmer's agenda at every possible moment.

Personally think its all part of politics but don't think it is right to blame one person for the division.

On this one - Starmer has made a decision.
The Division will come from those who disagree with him.
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First there are literally thousands, maybe tens of of anti starmer posts and they're flooding it with Starmers dishonestly from his interviews 🤦‍♂️

And how telling there is no mention of anti-semitism in this motion which tells me Starmer isn't confident enough to use it for legal reasons


 
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Jonny Ingbar said:
Success is a Labour government, rather than a Conservative one - I would have that that was self-evident?

Of course we've never hard left government, it was a rhetorical question really.
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No. Success is making the lives of millions of ordinary people better. If you aren't going to do that then I don't care what you call yourself.

We haven't ever had a hard left Labour party. There has never been a realistic option for a hard left government and any pretence otherwise is ridiculous.

Jedi boro said:
Exactly NOTHING else matters
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That just sets yourself up for a massive betrayal. I hope it doesn't happen but the more I see the more it looks certain.
 
Scrote said:
Centrist and moderate are not the same thing. Again you really need to start defining what you mean by the terms you use or there is no room for debate.

Corbyn's manifesto was moderate by any reasonable measure. Therefore the answer to your second question is a resounding yes.

A Starmer led Labour on the other hand is looking more and more like being a catastrophe for both the country and the left.
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No they're not, but in the context of my point it's obvious what I mean.

Would you really prefer another 13 years of Tory rule over a Starmer led Labour?

Corbyn was the issue in terms of Labour being appealing to the most voters, not his policies and that's exactly the point. Starmer and the Labour Party know this, hence today's news. Labour have yet to actually publish its manifesto, but in leiu of that its obvious how they are trying to present to the electorate.

It remains and probably always will, that the more central Labour is the more chance it has of success in the next election.

Its an imperfect offering of course, but that's the reality, as much as it may leave a sour taste.
 
SuperStu said:
In my opinion he could do more good leading and fundraising for his campaign organisation. The thing the left needs more than anything is for its policies to be talked about. Look at the support Mick Lynch was able to win for striking workers over the last year just by being able to out argue the media.

I know he's a great constituency MP so it'll be nice for the folk in Islington North if he stands and wins as an independent. But what benefit would there be to the rest of us? He'll have zero direct influence on policy whether it's a Labour or Tory gov.

Starmer's faction are so vexxed by Corbyn's presence it honestly might be easier for the wider left to extract compromises from a right wing Labour government without his face being there. I'm really not exaggerating much to say I'd worry about a PM Starmer launching some kind of ground war with Russia just for the sake of contradicting something Corbyn says about the need for peace talks in the next parliament.
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I think you make a very good point about Mick Lynch in that he got out there and won the intellectual argument.

He is now a hate figure for the right but he still won the argument.

The Tories keep doing well in elections because they win the arguments -

Triple lock for pensioners
Keep taxes down to put money in people’s pockets
Public spending is wasteful compared to private spending
Strong business environment to promote the creation of private sector jobs
Encourage inward investment to attract foreign money
Give Brexit because that was the referendum result…..

Etc

Labour seem consumed by Starmer v Corbyn, right v left, betrayer v betrayed.

Its no way to win an election, they need to get out there and start winning the arguments as to why Labour can do all the above but a lot better and less corrupt than the Tories.
 
1finny said:
It will cause a bit of a ruck
But
Starmer has laid out the logic - with Starmer endorsed it diminishes the chances of a Labour win.

I probably agree with him on that.
Others won’t but - at least we understand.

As for JC - he can stand as an independent will get elected and continue to do what he does.
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Yup, I totally get it, the party, and winning, is more important than any one person, and the direction Labour take needs to be cohesive.

I'm sure there will be other candidates people will vote for, who will be going in the direction of the current party/ leadership (which wants to win).

Corbyn can still stand as an independent, and I would be happy for him to win, but having him win under the Labour banner would do more harm than good, to the party, which would ultimately be counterproductive to what Corbyn actually pushes for.
 
If the Social Campaign Group of Labour MP`s had the balls - they would resign the Party Whip and stand in solidarity with Jeremy Corbyn. If they dont - they are complicit in the destruction of any remnants of democracy. A few "calls" or tweets wont stop the NEC doing what Starmer and his aparatciks has told them to do. The Socialist Campaign group will be next. They are lambs waiting to be slaughtered.


First They Came

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist

Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist

Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist

Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew

Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemoller
 
TeaCider said:
Don't really see the need for it.

Will be glad if I never have to hear about Corbyn again, but it's going to alienate more than it will win over by being so heavy handed here.
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It might alienate some of those who voted for Corbyn, but aiming to please those doesn't win elections unfortunately, if it also alienates the centre (or allows people to vote tory right), which is why the tactics have needed to change.

From a mathematical standpoint, losing 10 from the left and gaining 8 from the centre who Voted Tory last election (or gaining those who don't vote from that position), is still a massive gain v the Tories. I'd rather have 350 labour seats and 50 independent/ green or whatever V 200 tories, rather than 200-250 labour and 350-400 Tories. Labour losing to the tories does absolutely zero for the left, or anyone left of centre.
 
Keir Starmer's Labour is the Tories winning even when they are losing. If they could choose a Labour government that would give them as close to a Tory manifesto as possible then they'd choose Starmer's Labour.

I'll never understand the win at all costs mentality. It's utterly pointless winning if you are just going to carry on with the status quo. We've had 13 years of driving in the wrong direction and Starmer just wants to slow down when we need to turn around urgently and accelerate rapidly.
 
Ive always thought of corbyn as a dieing breed of a politician someone with with integrity and principles he must be deeply hurt by the direction labour party is going. Absolute shambolic treatment is he really such a threat to starmer. Its utter paranoia from starmer to me its like cracking a nut with a cruise missile. I hope labour win with starmer but as soon as possible his own party turn on him and demand real social change
 
Andy_W said:
It might alienate some of those who voted for Corbyn, but aiming to please those doesn't win elections
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The problem isn't alienating people who would vote for Corbyn. The problem is treating the truth as an inconvenience and just wanting power for the sake of it.

It's coming across as very much "it's our turn" rather than "we need to change things". Without meaningful change the Labour party will do well to last a term and certainly won't get another.

Blair - love him or loathe him - understood this. Starmer and his fanboys don't.

The right-wing press will bring up every single example that the left have uncovered to show why Starmer is unfit to lead the country. He, personally, will become unelectable very quickly. The next election might be won due to the Tories recent record. The one after that will be much harder. Abandoning everything that kept the left vote onside for a very short term gain is idiotic. The floating voters will leave on a whim. The left will never come back.
 
bumface said:
I don't hate many people but I really f*cking hate Keir Starmer.
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I have never known a more dishonest politician, and I include Johnson in that

For those who still say Corbyn wasn't appealing

2005 - 9,552,436 (Blair)
2010 - 8,609,527 (Brown)
1015 - 9,347,273 (Milliband)
2017 - 12,877,918 (Corbyn)
2019 - 10,269,051 (Corbyn)

After Labour MPs pushed for a second referendum 52 seats lost were in leave areas, 6 were remain Scotland seats and 2 remain England

61% of Labour MPs represented leave seats

🤔
 
Scrote said:
The problem isn't alienating people who would vote for Corbyn. The problem is treating the truth as an inconvenience and just wanting power for the sake of it.

It's coming across as very much "it's our turn" rather than "we need to change things". Without meaningful change the Labour party will do well to last a term and certainly won't get another.

Blair - love him or loathe him - understood this. Starmer and his fanboys don't.

The right-wing press will bring up every single example that the left have uncovered to show why Starmer is unfit to lead the country. He, personally, will become unelectable very quickly. The next election might be won due to the Tories recent record. The one after that will be much harder. Abandoning everything that kept the left vote onside for a very short term gain is idiotic. The floating voters will leave on a whim. The left will never come back.
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You could be right or is it simply that Starmer is showing a ruthlessness to win an election which Labour have lacked since Tony Blair?

The problem with Corbyn is that he is so high profile that he will/would have as many journalists following him around as Starmer at the next election campaign quoting his every word as Labour policy rather than a personal comment.

From a messaging point of view alone I can see why that might be seen as a problem.

And I say that as a big fan of Corbyn.
 
HolgateCorner said:
You could be right or is it simply that Starmer is showing a ruthlessness to win an election which Labour have lacked since Tony Blair?

The problem with Corbyn is that he is so high profile that he will/would have as many journalists following him around as Starmer at the next election campaign quoting his every word as Labour policy rather than a personal comment.

From a messaging point of view alone I can see why that might be seen as a problem.

And I say that as a big fan of Corbyn.
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But there's only a mis-match in messaging because Starmer has consistently avoided telling the truth (as per the criticism from Martin Forde last week).

If Corbyn was going out of his way to be awkward (George Galloway springs to mind as someone ploughing their own furrow) then I'd understand it.

The problem is the truth regarding Corbyn is easily available for anyone that cares and that makes Starmer (and by extension the Labour party) look crooked.

This isn't 'good politics' - it's petty vindictiveness.
 
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