Starmers response to rishi pledges

We didn’t win though did we? The reasons for the Tories winning last time are complex and varied and are not just down to Brexit.

Remember the derision when Corbyn suddenly announced the free broadband policy? The Labour campaign was messy and lacked proper planning and structure.

To be elected in the UK you have to appeal to a broad group of people, going to the extremes of the left wing will only serve up yet another Tory government.
It was 100% down to Brexit. Johnson called the election because he knew he was going to win and Labour couldn't say no because they'd get hammered for not believing in themselves. Their position on Brexit was nonsense and didn't appeal to Leave or Remain voters.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Broadband wasn't even in the manifesto, it was announced either alongside or afterwards but it was a desperate freebie thrown in when defeat was already staring them in the face. The manifesto, and particularly the one vs May was extremely popular. Without wanting to re-tread old ground May went to the polls because she expected to increase her majority and Corbyn's manifesto was so popular that her majority was reduced. Labour gained 3.6m voters compared to 2015 (Tories also gained but only 2.3m) They didn't win but they began the month so far behind that it was as good a result they could have hoped for when his own party, never mind the opposition and the media were so anti-Corbyn.
 
It was 100% down to Brexit. Johnson called the election because he knew he was going to win and Labour couldn't say no because they'd get hammered for not believing in themselves. Their position on Brexit was nonsense and didn't appeal to Leave or Remain voters.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the Broadband wasn't even in the manifesto, it was announced either alongside or afterwards but it was a desperate freebie thrown in when defeat was already staring them in the face. The manifesto, and particularly the one vs May was extremely popular. Without wanting to re-tread old ground May went to the polls because she expected to increase her majority and Corbyn's manifesto was so popular that her majority was reduced. Labour gained 3.6m voters compared to 2015 (Tories also gained but only 2.3m) They didn't win but they began the month so far behind that it was as good a result they could have hoped for when his own party, never mind the opposition and the media were so anti-Corbyn.
If it was 100% down to Brexit then why didn’t the Tories get 17.4m votes?
 
To govern you first have to be elected. Blair understood that and it was reflected in his first term budget commitments.

We’ve tried presenting the public with a more radical agenda and been comprehensively beaten. We have to be more circumspect and take people with us gradually rather than trying to say we’ll build Rome in a day.
exactly this, people need to see the stability, investment and improvement in services in modest terms before they are happy to buy further into socialist policies and fund more. Get in to power, restore sanity, identify the problems left by the Tories and convince the public that we need more investment
 
If it was 100% down to Brexit then why didn’t the Tories get 17.4m votes?
Seriously? Surely you aren't that daft.

The reason they lost was because the biggest issue they weren't committed to anything but it isn't the biggest issue for everyone. I was a Leave voter but I voted Labour because I'd rather a left-wing version of anything than a Tory version of Brexit and similarly there will have been lots of Tory remain voters but for anyone in the middle that wanted Brexit they were only going one way.
exactly this, people need to see the stability, investment and improvement in services in modest terms before they are happy to buy further into socialist policies and fund more. Get in to power, restore sanity, identify the problems left by the Tories and convince the public that we need more investment
Alternatively, after 1 Parliament of centrist policies come the following election and all the floating centrists are happy with getting everything they wanted so when Labour move left and a centrist Tory PM comes along and says they'll carry on with Starmer's centrist policies then they lose them. It's better to give them what they don't know they want until they've had it when they are definitely going to win anyway and then force the Tories to campaign to take it away if they want to get rid of it than it is to offer lefty policies when there's a chance of not winning.
 
I'll stick by my prediction:

• Sir Keef to win next election (poisoned chalice)
• Things start to unravel with media all over them
• Boris Johnson rides back in on white horse

Years of hardship to come I'm afraid
 
Seriously? Surely you aren't that daft.

The reason they lost was because the biggest issue they weren't committed to anything but it isn't the biggest issue for everyone. I was a Leave voter but I voted Labour because I'd rather a left-wing version of anything than a Tory version of Brexit and similarly there will have been lots of Tory remain voters but for anyone in the middle that wanted Brexit they were only going one way.

Alternatively, after 1 Parliament of centrist policies come the following election and all the floating centrists are happy with getting everything they wanted so when Labour move left and a centrist Tory PM comes along and says they'll carry on with Starmer's centrist policies then they lose them. It's better to give them what they don't know they want until they've had it when they are definitely going to win anyway and then force the Tories to campaign to take it away if they want to get rid of it than it is to offer lefty policies when there's a chance of not winning.

I see where you are coming from but the elephant in the room is how the cards were dealt by the media.
And, I'm talking in its broadest sense (social media too).
They were dealt by those who badly wanted a Tory victory (and usually do) and those cards were accepted without much push back.
The media campaign (particularly social media) was well funded, coherent and effective.

That's why we all need to be wary of what happens next.
We are in grave danger in thinking the electorate make their own minds up - and have done so already.

For what it's worth I think Labour have got their act together in terms of PR and are walking a delicate tightrope.
Personally, I'm not worried about manifestos and promises - there are so many reasons they can change.
I'm happy to hope for a victory and judge on what they do - not what they say they will do.
 
Seriously? Surely you aren't that daft.

The reason they lost was because the biggest issue they weren't committed to anything but it isn't the biggest issue for everyone. I was a Leave voter but I voted Labour because I'd rather a left-wing version of anything than a Tory version of Brexit and similarly there will have been lots of Tory remain voters but for anyone in the middle that wanted Brexit they were only going one way.

Alternatively, after 1 Parliament of centrist policies come the following election and all the floating centrists are happy with getting everything they wanted so when Labour move left and a centrist Tory PM comes along and says they'll carry on with Starmer's centrist policies then they lose them. It's better to give them what they don't know they want until they've had it when they are definitely going to win anyway and then force the Tories to campaign to take it away if they want to get rid of it than it is to offer lefty policies when there's a chance of not winning.
So I’ve posted “nonsense” and now you’re calling me daft. Why can’t we have a discussion without the personal remarks?

It wasn’t down just to Brexit as if it was you’d have seen the Tories get much closer to 17.4m votes. There are a whole range of reasons why the list such as media influence, poor strategy, poor messaging, poor choice of candidates. You cannot put it all on Brexit. If people had liked the policies that much then the Brexit policy wouldn’t have put them off - they could have still had Brexit due to the referendum they were being promised.

Eg vote Labour, get all the policies they like. Then vote leave in the confirmatory referendum on Brexit.

The fact is that Labour lost the last election and we have to learn from that in order to win the next.

The predictions of doom on here aren’t supported by the last Labour government - their first term didn’t lead to the Tories riding straight back in.
 
I thought this was a good read from Professor Michael Jacobs:


All told, Labour now has a solid economic policy, and one which certainly cannot be characterised as “New Labour”. Its plans for industrial strategy, collective bargaining and workers’ rights are well to the left of anything done by Tony Blair and Brown. Its climate and energy programme is more radical than Miliband’s in 2015. Indeed, excepting nationalisation, it is not too far from the economic prospectus set out in Corbyn’s 2017 manifesto.

We should not be surprised at this. There is a prevalent myth that Labour only wins from the centre. But this is a misreading of the party’s postwar history. New Labour was able to win from the centre because the economy was in the middle of a long boom, enabling the party to redistribute the fruits of growth to public services and poverty reduction.

But when the economy is doing badly, Labour has always moved to the left, seeking more active interventions and structural reform.


Starmer is being cautious, but we're unlikely to have an election in 2023 so we're still on mile 13 of a marathon. I think he's got enough people around him on the Labour benches who can provide the scathing commentary on these F***ing useless tories.

In the meantime he's getting his eventual manifesto right and ready to go. He can't afford to have any un-costed, out of thin air ideas (such as free broadband for all) in there come 2024.
 
Anything is better than the current government so the first thing we have to do is suck it up, put our big boy pants on and vote for Labour or whichever party in your constituency that can kick the tories out.

Then we can argue about how far to the left we should be going.

The voters in this country are not yet ready to vote in large enough number for a corbyn, we have to accept that for now.
I completely disagree that anything is better than this current government. That’s because if the main(only, let’s face it) opposition aren’t prepared to stand up for what is right and stand on a platform where the only thing they have is not being as bad as ‘them’, then you end up disenfranchising people even further, to the point where people just don’t care.

People are literally dying in hospital corridors and this bloke is yapping on about the private sector. His lying sidekick Reeves is currently touring the TV studios telling Gobsh*te Ferrari and anyone who’ll listen that the last few Labour manifestos weren’t costed. They’re f*cking LYING to you, me, us. And in plain sight. It’s disgusting.

I just can’t accept that this is the best a Labour leader can offer, can show us, can conjure up by way of oratory and HOPE. This ‘he’s keeping his powder dry’ stuff drives me up the wall. There’s no evidence to support that line of thought. He’s literally telling you this. Unless he’s lying, of course.
 
I completely disagree that anything is better than this current government. That’s because if the main(only, let’s face it) opposition aren’t prepared to stand up for what is right and stand on a platform where the only thing they have is not being as bad as ‘them’, then you end up disenfranchising people even further, to the point where people just don’t care.

People are literally dying in hospital corridors and this bloke is yapping on about the private sector. His lying sidekick Reeves is currently touring the TV studios telling Gobsh*te Ferrari and anyone who’ll listen that the last few Labour manifestos weren’t costed. They’re f*cking LYING to you, me, us. And in plain sight. It’s disgusting.

I just can’t accept that this is the best a Labour leader can offer, can show us, can conjure up by way of oratory and HOPE.
I'm with you on this one mate. You've got it spot on there.
 
He’s cowering away from the newspaper barons but if he had any conviction he’d spend the next 12-18 months banging on and on and ON about the savage cuts, deaths, fraud, tax avoidance, austerity, increasing homelessness and endless corruption we’re enduring under this current Tory shower. You just can’t cower away when you’re in a crisis. People NEED somebody in authority to stand up for them.
 
I completely disagree that anything is better than this current government. That’s because if the main(only, let’s face it) opposition aren’t prepared to stand up for what is right and stand on a platform where the only thing they have is not being as bad as ‘them’, then you end up disenfranchising people even further, to the point where people just don’t care.

People are literally dying in hospital corridors and this bloke is yapping on about the private sector. His lying sidekick Reeves is currently touring the TV studios telling Gobsh*te Ferrari and anyone who’ll listen that the last few Labour manifestos weren’t costed. They’re f*cking LYING to you, me, us. And in plain sight. It’s disgusting.

I just can’t accept that this is the best a Labour leader can offer, can show us, can conjure up by way of oratory and HOPE. This ‘he’s keeping his powder dry’ stuff drives me up the wall. There’s no evidence to support that line of thought. He’s literally telling you this. Unless he’s lying, of course.
I can't entirely disagree with you at all really, but, the way I look at it is, if I'm gonna get raped regardless, I'm still choosing the guy who might at least buy me dinner and use some lube.
 
I completely disagree that anything is better than this current government. That’s because if the main(only, let’s face it) opposition aren’t prepared to stand up for what is right and stand on a platform where the only thing they have is not being as bad as ‘them’, then you end up disenfranchising people even further, to the point where people just don’t care.

People are literally dying in hospital corridors and this bloke is yapping on about the private sector. His lying sidekick Reeves is currently touring the TV studios telling Gobsh*te Ferrari and anyone who’ll listen that the last few Labour manifestos weren’t costed. They’re f*cking LYING to you, me, us. And in plain sight. It’s disgusting.

I just can’t accept that this is the best a Labour leader can offer, can show us, can conjure up by way of oratory and HOPE. This ‘he’s keeping his powder dry’ stuff drives me up the wall. There’s no evidence to support that line of thought. He’s literally telling you this. Unless he’s lying, of course.

So you are happy to stick with the Tories then? Sounds like you must be as you have just rubbished the opposition.
 
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