Streets ahead? What I’ve learned from my year with an electric car

[Nano]

It's not "my" circumstnaces though. That's the point everyone, who wants to personally attack me as is the trend, is missing.

It's the average journey. It's the journey the man on the Clapham omnibus takes every day. This is the point I'm trying to get across. The average journey in this country is something like 14 miles. Not MY average journey, or the average Londoners journey, the average journey for everyone.

Let me put it another way, for the majority of the time we use our cars to go to work or go to the shops. How many of us work and shop 100 miles away from where we live?

Nobody has denied that for the average journey an EV is great. The line if mine after the one you have quoted said exactly that. The average is meaningless though. That average comes from the entire range of 0.1 mile journeys all the way up to 1000 journeys. We don't only do the average. Some people only do less than the average, they pootle around town and never really go very far. Others are "power users". EVs are probably great for the majority of people the majority of the time but there will be situations where it is worse and if the alternative is something that is great for all of the time then all else being equal the alternative might be more appropriate.

There's no harm in admitting that something isn't perfect. I've got £60k worth of EV car but sometimes it's less appropriate than my other car which is a £2k petrol banger. It's the preaching that irritates people. People don't like being preached at.

 

[SmallTown]

Nobody has denied that for the average journey an EV is great. The line if mine after the one you have quoted said exactly that. The average is meaningless though. That average comes from the entire range of 0.1 mile journeys all the way up to 1000 journeys. We don't only do the average. Some people only do less than the average, they pootle around town and never really go very far. Others are "power users". EVs are probably great for the majority of people the majority of the time but there will be situations where it is worse and if the alternative is something that is great for all of the time then all else being equal the alternative might be more appropriate.

There's no harm in admitting that something isn't perfect. I've got £60k worth of EV car but sometimes it's less appropriate than my other car which is a £2k petrol banger. It's the preaching that irritates people. People don't like being preached at.

I age admitted it isn’t perfect. I also want to address some of the myths of EVs which people are helping me with by having to make more and more desperate “journeys” to disprove me

 

[zzzzz]

I have a smallish electric SUV Hyundai Kona.
The heating does significantly reduce remaining mileage but as someone has said, try to charge the car with heating timed to come on just before you set off. Motorway driving at 70mph also reduces the mileage but can serve to 'persuade'you to reduce your speed.
I went to Stoke in my car and recharged at the last Service Sration north of Stoke, had a cuppa and a sarnie and had enough charge to get home (just).
Nice little car but with a list price of 35k, not feasible yet for mass sales (mine's a company vehicle).
Home charger is a complete no-brainer and it is handy getting into a warm, fully defrosted car on a freezing cold morning.
I have a short commute with the occasional long trip, so ideal for me.
All in all, I like the EV and I love the acceleration, even in a Kona, it's rapid!

There you go. Spot on. A well balanced review of practical pros and cons.
Keep your speed down and drive with a coat and hat on and all will be well.

 

[Redwurzel]

S

The puzzle should be why this myth persists?

Yes EV are slightly more expensive then their petrol equivalent but it's really only marginal.

My car is actually cheaper than the ICE car that the manufacturers says is it's direct rival so it's not that clear.

Agree about the charging situation, the rest oif the country needs to catch up and destination charging needs to improve.

What car do you drive at the moment? If you often drive for 4.5 hours I would suggest a corsa, electric or not, being a small city car wouldn't be the car for you.

Seat Ibiza - its designed for motorways and cities - the petrol version is about £16k brand new - most super minis are fine for driving long journey for most drivers nowadays.

My long journeys are obviously not daily, but will be monthly and I can assure are real (not made up).

I am hoping I can buy electric vehicle for £16k brand new with a minimum range of 300 miles, in the next 5 years.

 

[Warwickboro]

Were all going to need to swap our petrol cars at some point, I guess the remailn question is "are EV's the best way" bearing in mind the huge amount of work regarding charge points, or can we overcome the storage issues and introduce the hydrogen fuel cell model instead

 

[Warwickboro]

Another point of interest for this debate, I work in the energy industry, what I will say is there are issues with electrification that arent talked about enough. 1 being for buildings i.e heat pumps - the issue being leaky existing housing stock in terms of insulation means the pumps will not be able to cope with the demands put in them, another major issue is the cost of electricity outside of a fuel crisis is twice the rate of gas, so when these pumps are struggling people will be racking up huge energy bills, and finally they cost vast sums to install, they last 10 to 15 years, there is a very limited network of installers to maintain them, and when they workhard in winter they draw from the grid putting pressure onbother system.. But the big point of this is that the electric network is nearly over capacity at the best of times, once we add millions of EVs and heat pumps into that mix we will have a real problem. The uk infrastructure needs huge investment to cope with this, this for.me is the major issue, and is.my biggest concern with the electrification of energy. We do need to consider a mix of solutions based on this IMO, but EVs themselves are coming on leaps and bounds

 

[SmallTown]

There you go. Spot on. A well balanced review of practical pros and cons.
Keep your speed down and drive with a coat and hat on and all will be well.

Apart from the coat and hat thing obviously

 

[SmallTown]

Were all going to need to swap our petrol cars at some point, I guess the remailn question is "are EV's the best way" bearing in mind the huge amount of work regarding charge points, or can we overcome the storage issues and introduce the hydrogen fuel cell model instead

No. Because the charge point issue you point out is much worse for hydrogen as there are virtually no hydrogen stations in the country. Also hydrogen currently doesn’t help the environment one bit as it’s almost all grey and the rest blue, both created by burning fossil fuels. Even if we do switch to green hydrogen, which seems an impossibly long way off given less than 1% of hydrogen is green: it still begs the question: if we use renewable energy to create electricity. Then use that electricity to create hydrogen. Then use energy to transport that hydrogen around the country. Then use that to refuel our cars. Why don’t we cut out the create hydrogen and transport hydrogen steps and just stick the renewable energy straight into our cars? And have cars 4 times as efficient as current hydrogen vehicles

 

[Warwickboro]

No. Because the charge point issue you point out is much worse for hydrogen as there are virtually no hydrogen stations in the country. Also hydrogen currently doesn’t help the environment one bit as it’s almost all grey and the rest blue, both created by burning fossil fuels. Even if we do switch to green hydrogen, which seems an impossibly long way off given less than 1% of hydrogen is green: it still begs the question: if we use renewable energy to create electricity. Then use that electricity to create hydrogen. Then use energy to transport that hydrogen around the country. Then use that to refuel our cars. Why don’t we cut out the create hydrogen and transport hydrogen steps and just stick the renewable energy straight into our cars? And have cars 4 times as efficient as current hydrogen vehicles

Good point, possibly electric cars and hydrogen for home heating to help the system cope?

 

[SmallTown]

Good point, possibly electric cars and hydrogen for home heating to help the system cope?

Yeah. Hydrogen definitely is part of the future. It’s so abundant and once we crack green hydrogen a great energy store. For larger vehicles too, hydrogen would probably top electric because of energy density for tonne and quicker refuelling

 

[A]

I've been following this thread with interest and in the hope I could be convinced to EV in the next 3-4 months but the dismissal of range anxiety doesn't help me at all. I drive at least every other weekend to get to the lakes or the borders hiking. I don't have a good spot for a home charger because I live on a hill and the driveway is away from the house. Where I have to park for work, which is only 4 miles away, does not have chargers. Therefore most weekends I cant guarantee full or even near full charge for what us usually a 200 mile round trip. There will likely never be chargers at the locations I have to park for the hike and there are very few, if any, chargers on my routes as they are twisty little roads, not the M1. A petrol station is rare enough.

Therefore destination charging is not possible, topping up on the way is very unlikely, charging at work isn't an option and a home charger will be tricky. That means in my due consideration of whether to buy EV or not, range anxiety is very much a factor whether the oracle thinks it's a myth or not. He can rebrand this as charging anxiety as much as he likes, but in my scenario at least, I cant make any real distinction between the 2. If I can't leave my house and know I can get back without having to go off route just to charge, that is range anxiety. I don't have any such issues in my petrol car so until EV can offer the same package for both refueling and range, it looks like I'll have to remain with petrol despite very much wanting to go electric

Range anxiety a myth? Nonsense statement for some of us

 

[Warwickboro]

I've been following this thread with interest and in the hope I could be convinced to EV in the next 3-4 months but the dismissal of range anxiety doesn't help me at all. I drive at least every other weekend to get to the lakes or the borders hiking. I don't have a good spot for a home charger because I live on a hill and the driveway is away from the house. Where I have to park for work, which is only 4 miles away, does not have chargers. Therefore most weekends I cant guarantee full or even near full charge for what us usually a 200 mile round trip. There will likely never be chargers at the locations I have to park for the hike and there are very few, if any, chargers on my routes as they are twisty little roads, not the M1. A petrol station is rare enough.

Therefore destination charging is not possible, topping up on the way is very unlikely, charging at work isn't an option and a home charger will be tricky. That means in my due consideration of whether to buy EV or not, range anxiety is very much a factor whether the oracle thinks it's a myth or not. He can rebrand this as charging anxiety as much as he likes, but in my scenario at least, I cant make any real distinction between the 2. If I can't leave my house and know I can get back without having to go off route just to charge, that is range anxiety. I don't have any such issues in my petrol car so until EV can offer the same package for both refueling and range, it looks like I'll have to remain with petrol despite very much wanting to go electric

Range anxiety a myth? Nonsense statement for some of us

Yeah I can see that would be a problem. Having 2 kids, I do have some range anxiety myself, but in my day to day life, school, work home I could manage. The once a year trip to Cornwall would be a concern, with 2 kids in the car, if I pre planned and anything went wrong it would spell disaster with kids in tow lol. I guess I could start with one EV and keep one petrol around until the 2nd hand EV market improves, and charge points are increased. But a small runaround like a leaf for school to work and back should be doable

 

[redcarbob]

Not exactly like for like, there's a significant performance increase between the 1.5 vti and the EV version. I wouldn't expect to pay the same for a BMW 330 as I would for a BMW 318 (if such a thing exists) also did you factor in the grant for the EV? with both these things considered the 9 grand becomes significantly smaller.

Okay, so the MGZS EV is £29495, knock off the £1500 government grant and it takes it to £27995
The MGZS 1.5 petrol is £18795, so £9200 cheaper. I’ll give you a very good discount of £4K for the significant EV performance increase you mention, which still makes it £5200 more expensive for the EV, which isn’t marginal.

 

[SmallTown]

Okay, so the MGZS EV is £29495, knock off the £1500 government grant and it takes it to £27995
The MGZS 1.5 petrol is £18795, so £9200 cheaper. I’ll give you a very good discount of £4K for the significant EV performance increase you mention, which still makes it £5200 more expensive for the EV, which isn’t marginal.

And what’s the relative performance?

 

[Billy69_uk]

No. Because the charge point issue you point out is much worse for hydrogen as there are virtually no hydrogen stations in the country. Also hydrogen currently doesn’t help the environment one bit as it’s almost all grey and the rest blue, both created by burning fossil fuels. Even if we do switch to green hydrogen, which seems an impossibly long way off given less than 1% of hydrogen is green: it still begs the question: if we use renewable energy to create electricity. Then use that electricity to create hydrogen. Then use energy to transport that hydrogen around the country. Then use that to refuel our cars. Why don’t we cut out the create hydrogen and transport hydrogen steps and just stick the renewable energy straight into our cars? And have cars 4 times as efficient as current hydrogen vehicles

You make some good points and on the face of it the energy balance doesn’t seem to add up.

I am aware of one project related to an offshore wind farm which can’t operate at capacity due to the inability to transmit or take the power into the grid. So the operators are using the “free” green electricity to power a hydrolyser in an offshore platform to create green hydrogen, then pipe the hydrogen ashore where it can be used for a multitude of purposes.

It does seem weird to use electricity to create hydrogen in order to create electricity, but in reality it’s no different to using hydro electricity to create green hydrogen. It’s jsut a different form of storing and using energy other than fossil fuels, which has To be a good thing.

Don’t forget hydrogen fuel cell cars all need batteries and motors as well, just smaller batteries to deal with the transient loads and acceleration etc.

Now hydrogen powered ICE is something much more interesting for me personally as it will be more useful for some applications, say heavy duty trucks, where there will be weight and space limitations and reduced costs compared to batteries and fuel cells etc.

Like I said before, there is space for multiple technologies, and not one solution will work for all applications or people.

 

[BoroMart]

As I said previously, stopping on long journeys isn't an issue because you stop anyway, it's the 100 mile there and back journeys

200mile total journeys are way way above the average journey, only a small % of people are making journeys of that length regularly.

the Tesla app lie as a cracking lie in so many ways: firstly because it only affects one manufacturer. Genty is trying to make EV about a single manufacturer because it makes his trolling easier. Secondly it’s false because all Tesla come with a key card as well as a phone up. Thirdly it’s a lie because the phone app doesn’t need the internet to work. My parking has no signal for either the phone or the car, and yet the access app works. Fourthly, and this is perhaps my favourite part of the lie IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH EVs even if it wasn’t a lie, it’s related to how a manufacturer controls access to half its line up of vehicles (model s and x do come with a key). I had a Merc diesel that had keyless entry too. So desperate is he to try and troll EVs he’s picking a problem that isn’t even related to EV. Priceless

I concur, everything ST has said here is correct

 

[JustTheGent]

For me, EVs are not the future - they are the past. It's an absolute bandwagon, even the car manufacturers privately admit this. There's so many problems with them. There's not enough pages on this website to discuss them all. If you really dig down into the evidence, none of it makes sense. Sure, you'll get a few people who'll bust a stack and claim 'TCO' on here But look at the data, look at the studies. Running costs have proved to be significantly higher than even petrol vehicles that are lower down the mpg ladder. These EVs cost more to buy, cost more to run, cost more to insure and cost more to fix.

We know materials are becoming short in supply. The idea that Tesla are now producing cheaper and lower quality batteries because they are more environmentally friendly is ludicrous Why haven't they been doing it all along then? I'll tell you why, because they aren't any good and they've only switched because materials are in short supply and the price shot up. It's not rocket science, gents - so don't pretend it is

Infrastructure is another massive problem. Charging technology, of course - faster charges? How's that going to work? You fire all that current into vehicles that aren't designed to take it and it's big trouble. As these vehicles age, any little glitch in the cabling or battery terminals - it's going to be serious trouble.

Just take a look at China, the biggest EV market in the world. They've had to introduce new insurance guidelines criteria because these EVs keep going wrong. And just to note, they are going wrong when they are new - not old. What's going to happen to many of these vehicles in 5, 10, 15 years?

China's Insurance Providers are Issuing New Policies for Electrified Vehicles, Which Costs More Than Standard Vehicle Insurance

The Insurance Association of China (IAC), has launched new insurance guidelines specifically for New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in the country. The new insurance policies take into account the risks of batteries, energy storage systems, electric motors and electric control systems of electrified...

m.futurecar.com

 

[Redwurzel]

There was a new article on BBC Midland TV this evening about EV and Hydrogen vehicles.

It said electric vehicles were heavy, because of the weight of the large battery(s) for stored power which is just as heavy when not charged as charged.

I found a website that says a Telse S Series weights 2215kg (thats very heavy)

Is this all true?

 

[SmallTown]

For me, EVs are not the future - they are the past. It's an absolute bandwagon, even the car manufacturers privately admit this. There's so many problems with them. There's not enough pages on this website to discuss them all. If you really dig down into the evidence, none of it makes sense. Sure, you'll get a few people who'll bust a stack and claim 'TCO' on here But look at the data, look at the studies. Running costs have proved to be significantly higher than even petrol vehicles that are lower down the mpg ladder. These EVs cost more to buy, cost more to run, cost more to insure and cost more to fix.

We know materials are becoming short in supply. The idea that Tesla are now producing cheaper and lower quality batteries because they are more environmentally friendly is ludicrous Why haven't they been doing it all along then? I'll tell you why, because they aren't any good and they've only switched because materials are in short supply and the price shot up. It's not rocket science, gents - so don't pretend it is

Infrastructure is another massive problem. Charging technology, of course - faster charges? How's that going to work? You fire all that current into vehicles that aren't designed to take it and it's big trouble. As these vehicles age, any little glitch in the cabling or battery terminals - it's going to be serious trouble.

Just take a look at China, the biggest EV market in the world. They've had to introduce new insurance guidelines criteria because these EVs keep going wrong. And just to note, they are going wrong when they are new - not old. What's going to happen to many of these vehicles in 5, 10, 15 years?

China's Insurance Providers are Issuing New Policies for Electrified Vehicles, Which Costs More Than Standard Vehicle Insurance

The Insurance Association of China (IAC), has launched new insurance guidelines specifically for New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in the country. The new insurance policies take into account the risks of batteries, energy storage systems, electric motors and electric control systems of electrified...

m.futurecar.com

By paragraph:

So you're ignoring the cost of EV because it doesn't fit your narrative. How convenient.

Tesla new batteries: Do they have nickel in them? Or cobalt?

Problem, not a massive problem. It needs improving. The final sentence merely shows your massive ignorance of the technology: cars communicate with a charger to get optimum current. Take a Taycan to a 300KWh chargers and it'll charge at top speed, take a zoe and it'll charge it IT'S top speed. So, essentially you've already been proven wrong here.

The last comment is beyond ridiculous: Of course companies have regulations on technology, and of course China does. You keep pushing this absolute lie that EV's will go wrong. You seem impossible to explain why you lie like this, given the simplicity of the EV drivetrtain compared to ICE, and given we have plenty of EV now that have gone over 100000000

 

[SmallTown]

There was a new article on BBC Midland TV this evening about EV and Hydrogen vehicles.

It said electric vehicles were heavy, because of the weight of the large battery(s) for stored power which is just as heavy when not charged as charged.

I found a website that says a Telse S Series weights 2215kg (thats very heavy)

Is this all true?

Yes. But try driving a model s and tell me if it feels like a heavy car. Weight is distributed low to give it a low centre of gravity and therefore better handling. Also check out the Model X roll test. Show me any other large SUV less likely to roll than that