Tesla drivers…

[Laughing]

fair enough, some bits good, but in a bad way

I had a 718 and that handled probably better than any proper car I've driven, so not including kit cars etc, cracking cars. I think the chassis might be the same on 718's as the new 911's but not sure. Trying to get a drive of a 911, but they've got none available for test drives at the minute, yet they still want me to fork out That's the thing with good cars though, even my 718 I was a bit concerned about leaving it anywhere, and it doesn't look that great turning up to a client meeting in a boxter, never mind a 911. Often means I too and fro between something which stands out, and then something subtle, rinse and repeat. Was tempted by the Cayman GT4, but that might have been too hard as a daily driver.

I love TVR's the Cerbera used to be my favourite car as a kid, and I loved the look of the T350, especially the rear. I'm too much of a tech nut now, need all the gadgets and screens etc, now that I've had them, that's what's stopping me getting a 911 pre 991/992.

Hopefully in the next place I'll have a big enough garage for a Sunday car, as well as all of my tools and other gear.

Buy a good cerebra, check the chassis, they rot. You will never look at a car the same way.

 

[Randy]

Thing is you're comparing that Nova SRi based on nostalgia, compared to what was around at the time, and probably what other cars you had driven, which probably wasn't many back then (wasn't for me)? I drove a car without power steering for about half a mile about 10 years ago, and it was like going back to the horse and cart, it was horrible.

The SRi was 0-60 in about 10 seconds, about 30mpg, 100hp and pretty much a guaranteed death if you crashed at any sort of speed. If anything like that came out in the last 20 years, never mind now, without the Nova SRi badge, everyone would be saying it was a pile of junk.

Very good for the time, awful by today's standards, whether as a "drivers" car, or electric car.

I wasn't comparing it a Tesla as I've never driven a Tesla but I have driven plenty of cars over the years with driver aids through various jobs I've held.

My point wasn't about comparing the two cars it was about driving experiences.

You'll love the 911 though. Drove a 911 Turbo a few years back at a trackday event and when you put your foot down it's like been drop kicked by king kong. Smiles for days.

 

[Andy_W]

I wasn't comparing it a Tesla as I've never driven a Tesla but I have driven plenty of cars over the years with driver aids through various jobs I've held.

My point wasn't about comparing the two cars it was about driving experiences.

You'll love the 911 though. Drove a 911 Turbo a few years back at a trackday event and when you put your foot down it's like been drop kicked by king kong. Smiles for days.

Ah I wasn't on about comparing the Nova to a Tesla, it's not a fair fight anyway, Tesla's are a different price bracket.

I was comparing it more to any other new car, priced similar to how the Nova SRi was, relative to other choices, and the market it's aimed at. Something like the Hyundai i20 N, very cheap (for a new car) and great performance, but will have a thousand things the Nova never had and anyone would prefer to drive that around a track if you take the nostalgia away. Like I say though, for its time, and its price, the SRi was great at who it appealed to.

Haha, don't think I can stretch to a Turbo just yet, and by the time I could they won't be making them any more, not like they used to, or do now. Hopefully I get to drive one though, at some point, they look unreal.

They (all performance cars) will all be hybrids soon (the 2023 Turbo S is going to be a hybrid), to meet emissions or their market will drop 10 fold. I think the 2023 Turbo S is going to be a "standard" 911 engine, but with an added electric motor, rather than upping the engine power. They need the engine down for emissions. They will probably all end up 2ltr, with varying electric motors bolted on. I had been keeping a close eye on it, but lost track recently.

A GTX is my best hope, but would need prices to come down a bit to be able to justify that, but the used car price crash has started, so who knows. I would want to see a big crash though, so I know I'm not going to be the one taking a big hit. Probably a 992 Carrera S would be most likely, and I can't imagine I would be disappointed! I just like how it's a proper sports car, yet I can still get my dogs in the back, or some other bits and bobs. Don't have a need for rear seats for humans, so it looks far away the best choice.

 

[SmallTown]

They were rubbish even back in the day. You are sitting offset so they are uncomfortable for any length of time. However they have great suspension and a superb chassis that transmits every pebble in the road to your hands.

I have driven a 911 and I know porsche lovers rave about them but I marginally preferred the boxer mainly because of insurance costs and not being worried parking it anywhere. Great cars to drive, both of them.

If you want a proper drivers car go for any tvr. They have no driver aids at all including Air bags and want to kill you on every bend. You will die with a big grin on your face though.

I defy anyone to drive a tvr and not love every oversteer until you get it wrong, of course.

I would love a TVR. I was in a hair of getting a chimaera back in the day. The noise, the frame was so appealing. And the power for the cost of course. My first dream car was a Cerbera.

Back to the OP: the thing about Tesla is you can't believe the hype. They simply aren't all that. There are many good points: some people like the simplicity of the cabin. Because they are pure bred EV instead of converted ICE the space on them is massive for their size. Good "packaging" as they say. And, as far as the drive train goes they are very very good. The charging curve is excellent. The power and efficiency is best in class, sometimes by a long way.
The nuch lauded software is pretty poor though. As others have said auto pilot is prone to "phantom braking" on the motorway. The auto park sometimes work and sometimes is hopeless. More often than not hopeless too. The auto wipers don't use simple sensors like all other cars and as a result aren't good and the headlights are garbage in two ways: the dipped headlights are terrible and the auto main beam is so unreliable it's actually dangerous.

So yeah, as a vehicle they are fine but you have to be prepared to beta test the software for them.

 

[SmallTown]

If Musk is behind it, it's not for me.

Drive a VW instead

 

[Laughing]

I would love a TVR. I was in a hair of getting a chimaera back in the day. The noise, the frame was so appealing. And the power for the cost of course. My first dream car was a Cerbera.

Back to the OP: the thing about Tesla is you can't believe the hype. They simply aren't all that. There are many good points: some people like the simplicity of the cabin. Because they are pure bred EV instead of converted ICE the space on them is massive for their size. Good "packaging" as they say. And, as far as the drive train goes they are very very good. The charging curve is excellent. The power and efficiency is best in class, sometimes by a long way.
The nuch lauded software is pretty poor though. As others have said auto pilot is prone to "phantom braking" on the motorway. The auto park sometimes work and sometimes is hopeless. More often than not hopeless too. The auto wipers don't use simple sensors like all other cars and as a result aren't good and the headlights are garbage in two ways: the dipped headlights are terrible and the auto main beam is so unreliable it's actually dangerous.

So yeah, as a vehicle they are fine but you have to be prepared to beta test the software for them.

Thats probably a fair assessment. as with most things in life, there's some good and some bad.

I think teslas are souless, but, if ya wanna get back and forwads to work, they do the job, and do it quite cheaply, if you are prepared to offset the savings over the lifetime of the car.

 

[sherlock1969]

Drive a VW instead

I like Hyundai, very reliable

 

[SmallTown]

Thats probably a fair assessment. as with most things in life, there's some good and some bad.

I think teslas are souless, but, if ya wanna get back and forwads to work, they do the job, and do it quite cheaply, if you are prepared to offset the savings over the lifetime of the car.

Pretty good summary that.

 

[SmallTown]

I like Hyundai, very reliable

INtersting, I'm looking to replace the Tesla this year and the Ioniq 6 is on my Shortlist. Along with the Polestar 2
My point was ore it seems churlish not to gget the vehicle you want becasue you doni't like the CEO of the company. Eon Tae Ha may be crazy for all we know too

 

[sherlock1969]

INtersting, I'm looking to replace the Tesla this year and the Ioniq 6 is on my Shortlist. Along with the Polestar 2
My point was ore it seems churlish not to gget the vehicle you want becasue you doni't like the CEO of the company. Eon Tae Ha may be crazy for all we know too

Maybe.

But he hasn’t ruined Twitter

 

[SmallTown]

Maybe.

But he hasn’t ruined Twitter

You should see him on kakaotalk

 

[SmallTown]

Polestar 2 has just been updated to have a decent charging curve now. For none EV owners charging curves are important, far more so than range.

I think it's going to be my next car. The Tesla is now a cheap alternative to it

 

[xxlshirts_fit_all]

Polestar 2 has just been updated to have a decent charging curve now. For none EV owners charging curves are important, far more so than range.

I think it's going to be my next car. The Tesla is now a cheap alternative to it

What’s with the charging curve?

 

[SmallTown]

What’s with the charging curve?

Charigng curve is how quickly the car charges at a specific states of charge. When doing long journeys it's significantly more important than range as it means much shorter stops.

Basically EV batteries start charging quickly and taper off the more they get to full. But how quick they start, and how much they taper off, isn't even with all EV. For example my car starts charging at 250kW but after 20% full slowly starts tapering. Less sophisticated cars (which, as far as better tech goes is pretty much all of them) start high and then drop in big increments, meaning you miss out on a bit of power.

I don't know the charge curve for the new polestar but the old one started at a max of 150kW Which is pretty poor (worst in class). The only advantage it has was that it was "flat" as in it stayed at 150 until 45% full but then it dropped off a lot.

The new one starts charging at 205kW which is much better and will lead to shorter stops and more time driving. The range has been improved by 65 miles too but you won't really notice that

 

[Andy_W]

Charigng curve is how quickly the car charges at a specific states of charge. When doing long journeys it's significantly more important than range as it means much shorter stops.

Basically EV batteries start charging quickly and taper off the more they get to full. But how quick they start, and how much they taper off, isn't even with all EV. For example my car starts charging at 250kW but after 20% full slowly starts tapering. Less sophisticated cars (which, as far as better tech goes is pretty much all of them) start high and then drop in big increments, meaning you miss out on a bit of power.

I don't know the charge curve for the new polestar but the old one started at a max of 150kW Which is pretty poor (worst in class). The only advantage it has was that it was "flat" as in it stayed at 150 until 45% full but then it dropped off a lot.

The new one starts charging at 205kW which is much better and will lead to shorter stops and more time driving. The range has been improved by 65 miles too but you won't really notice that

Yeah, the charging curve can be annoying at the time, especially if you're driving an older EV which didn't start off all that quickly anyway.

Charging speed is way more important than range, especially with cars over 200 mile range, which I expect is what the vast majority would only consider. How often people actually drive 200 miles is another matter mind.

I think mine charges at 280kW max and is still over 100kW to 80%, which is mental, think some others do even more than that now. I've not seen this 280kW on mine mind, but that's because I've only used a public charger about 5 times in the last 8 months. I don't even think I've used it on a 350kW charger which could even do the 280kW to start with.

With new cars now though, for that vast majority (and those who have home/ work charging options), range, charging speed and charging curve are not all that important in the grand scheme of things. Most are doing 99% of their charging at home/ work, and only doing a 200 mile trip maybe once a month. It may make a 5 minute difference at the time, but over a year it's not amounting up to much at all. Different story for those who don't have home/ work charging options mind, but that problem will vanish over time with more chargers and more tech.

 

[SmallTown]

Agree with this. If you can homecharge like 75% of people and you do the average daily miles then you're not going to notic any charging curve or range. You'll just always have fuel for your say, everyday.

For long journeys curve counts. I found this out when I had an old model s hire car. Had better range than my car but a CCS adaptor which nerfed the charging curve and made long journeys tedious

 

[Andy_W]

Agree with this. If you can homecharge like 75% of people and you do the average daily miles then you're not going to notic any charging curve or range. You'll just always have fuel for your say, everyday.

For long journeys curve counts. I found this out when I had an old model s hire car. Had better range than my car but a CCS adaptor which nerfed the charging curve and made long journeys tedious

Aye, it's horses for courses. The problem is loads of people don't realise what type of horse they are and assume they're on a different course. You and I (and most other seasoned EV drivers) know what we're doing and could probably tell someone else what they need better than they think they can (with a little info), and be more truthful than a dealer etc.

The reason I mentioned it is charging curve, like all the other many parts of EV ownership, are for the vast majority not even worth thinking about, like range etc, yet things like the latter get far too much focus.

I bet the first question every EV dealer gets asked (by over 90% of first-time EV buyers) is "what range does it have", when they're someone who has a drive, and 99% of their trips are <30 miles round trip. The dealer will probably easily push them to a car with a higher range (more expense) when it's not necessary (to the vast majority).

Some others will have free charging at work, or wherever, which might be CCS/ type 2 only, and they might not even ask or know what the charger type is on the car they're looking at, which could save them a fortune. More and more people will be moving to houses with a charger already fitted, before they get an EV, and then go and get a car with a different plug type, costing them £500 to £1,000 to change, which will be worth more to them than a few hours additional charging on longer trips over the course of a year.

I bet not many ask about the charging speed, battery size and efficiency in miles per kWh. Someone doing 5 m/KWh and a battery half the size is going to have the same range and spend a lot less time at chargers (and a lot less expense) than someone doing 2.5 m/KWh, even if the latter has a top charging speed 50% faster.

I bet there are loads of things which people won't consider, or even know exist, which could save them a fortune, but will think about things which really won't make any difference to them at all.

 

[SmallTown]

I honestly think people have been conditioned by traditional car makers to believe range is the thing they should worry about. It's precisely why GM invented the phrase range anxiety.

I don't know anyone who has bought and ICE car and been mainly focused on the size of the fuel tank. Not a one. I bet most people don't KNOW how big their fuel tanks are and haven't calculated that against MPG. Yet in EV the equivalent issue is somehow the most important thing discussed. I agree with you there is an education piece to be done here. People need to learn that but the media and big auto don't want people to find this out

 

[Nano]

I honestly think people have been conditioned by traditional car makers to believe range is the thing they should worry about. It's precisely why GM invented the phrase range anxiety.

I don't know anyone who has bought and ICE car and been mainly focused on the size of the fuel tank. Not a one. I bet most people don't KNOW how big their fuel tanks are and haven't calculated that against MPG. Yet in EV the equivalent issue is somehow the most important thing discussed. I agree with you there is an education piece to be done here. People need to learn that but the media and big auto don't want people to find this out

Obviously because a petrol car will take the pretty much the same amount of time to fill a car whether it has a 10 gallon fuel tank or a 20 gallon fuel tank. When EVs were first introduced they couldn't travel more than 100 miles so obviously that lack of range (and there were hardly any chargers available ad none of them were rapid) was the main barrier to owning one. As time goes by that decreases but it still exists. As an EV owner, even though I only charge away from home on long journeys once a month maybe, it is something that has to be thought about and planned which never did with an ICE.

I know the term range anxiety might have been coined as a marketing trick but it stuck because it is real. It might not occur to a Tesla owner with access to the supercharger network but for most EV owners they will look at their route, see the best option and get there and realise there is a queue for the charger because it is the only 100Kw charger on that stretch of Motorway. It only needs a queue of 1 when there are only 2 chargers to turn a 20-30 min charge into an hour plus total stop and that is massively inconvenient when it means adding an additional 30% to the length of your 3 hour journey (which you possibly wouldn't have even stopped for at all in an ICE). I don't think the anxiety is from running out of charge though, it is from finding a charger in working order, that is quick enough and convenient enough to not drastically increase the length of time it takes you to do your journey. If you have young kids with you or a wife that says "told you we should have bought a petrol one" then multiply this "anxiety" by 10.

These issues will all go away over time. Not enough chargers will always be an issue when number of people wanting to charge exceeds the number of chargers even just by 1 but as soon as the capacity is there to meet the demand then it goes away and it just become part of the routine. We're not there yet though. We probably have the infrastructure for last year's EV numbers but there are more and more EVs on the roads every day so that demand isn't stagnant, it is growing. Infrastructure needs to expand quicker than demand for the anxiety to disappear.

 

[SmallTown]

Obviously because a petrol car will take the pretty much the same amount of time to fill a car whether it has a 10 gallon fuel tank or a 20 gallon fuel tank. When EVs were first introduced they couldn't travel more than 100 miles so obviously that lack of range (and there were hardly any chargers available ad none of them were rapid) was the main barrier to owning one. As time goes by that decreases but it still exists. As an EV owner, even though I only charge away from home on long journeys once a month maybe, it is something that has to be thought about and planned which never did with an ICE.

I know the term range anxiety might have been coined as a marketing trick but it stuck because it is real. It might not occur to a Tesla owner with access to the supercharger network but for most EV owners they will look at their route, see the best option and get there and realise there is a queue for the charger because it is the only 100Kw charger on that stretch of Motorway. It only needs a queue of 1 when there are only 2 chargers to turn a 20-30 min charge into an hour plus total stop and that is massively inconvenient when it means adding an additional 30% to the length of your 3 hour journey (which you possibly wouldn't have even stopped for at all in an ICE). I don't think the anxiety is from running out of charge though, it is from finding a charger in working order, that is quick enough and convenient enough to not drastically increase the length of time it takes you to do your journey. If you have young kids with you or a wife that says "told you we should have bought a petrol one" then multiply this "anxiety" by 10.

These issues will all go away over time. Not enough chargers will always be an issue when number of people wanting to charge exceeds the number of chargers even just by 1 but as soon as the capacity is there to meet the demand then it goes away and it just become part of the routine. We're not there yet though. We probably have the infrastructure for last year's EV numbers but there are more and more EVs on the roads every day so that demand isn't stagnant, it is growing. Infrastructure needs to expand quicker than demand for the anxiety to disappear.

You're correct. There isn't a thing as range anxiety but there is a worry at the moment that you won't get to a working charger. That'll have to be addressed as I see it as a barrier to EV take up. Probably the only one as other perceived issues haven't actually materialised.