The Boat Race(s)

[BoroMart]

I'm all for breaking the link between Eton and the cabinet.

However, Oxbridge will always be overrepresented in the government. They do still have the ability to attract the brightest students, and they'll increase this by opening themselves up to state schools. We might well see an increase in the percentage of Oxbridge prime ministers.

We do have to be careful using the word "elitism". Senior government positions are elite positions. We don't want the common man in those positions: I love the guys I have a pint with, but I wouldn't seriously trust them with public office. We want the outstanding, the brilliant, the elite. However, elite should be defined in terms of ability, not social class. Oxbridge has been associated with elitism defined by social class in the past. However, Oxbridge will remain associated with elitism if it truly becomes defined as a meritocracy.

Yes we don’t want pub guy in those roles, but I’m perfectly happy to have a guy who came from nothing worked his **** off in a state school and educated himself to make it. There should be no glass ceiling and I’d prefer somebody with experience of working class life and troubles in number 10 and other key roles, not someone born into wealth and privilege where a shortage of Dom Perignon at Waitrose is their definition of life struggles

 

[Frozen Horse]

Yes we don’t want pub guy in those roles, but I’m perfectly happy to have a guy who came from nothing worked his **** off in a state school and educated himself to make it. There should be no glass ceiling and I’d prefer somebody with experience of working class life and troubles in number 10 and other key roles, not someone born into wealth and privilege where a shortage of Dom Perignon at Waitrose is their definition of life struggles

So, your issue is not really with the universities: it is with the ease of access to them for certain classes? I can agree with that.

However, I do think your view of Oxbridge is out of date: it has changed and is continuing to change. Maybe your views reflect Oxbridge 35 years ago, when the current political leaders were students, and it will simply take a few more decades for the current make up of Oxbridge to filter into public consciousness.

Either way, the boat race will remain on the BBC.

 

[BoroMart]

So, your issue is not really with the universities: it is with the ease of access to them for certain classes? I can agree with that.

However, I do think your view of Oxbridge is out of date: it has changed and is continuing to change. Maybe your views reflect Oxbridge 35 years ago, when the current political leaders were students, and it will simply take a few more decades for the current make up of Oxbridge to filter into public consciousness.

Either way, the boat race will remain on the BBC.

They are changing, the entrance policies are changing they do have all edged targets of more equality, but it’s been a much slower pace than it should be.

As for how this plays out long run, we’ll have to wait and see if the next PMs and cabinet and top civil servant jobs are all given to that select oxbridge public school path or not

 

[Frozen Horse]

They are changing, the entrance policies are changing they do have all edged targets of more equality, but it’s been a much slower pace than it should be.

Agreed, but we can't change the past, can we? We have to deal with the here and now.

 

[The Ruthsayer]

Around 70% of Oxbridge students are from state schools.

You can argue that is still underrepresentation, which is true, and that that number has grown significantly over the years, so it hasn't always been true.

However, they are the vast majority. If they're prepared to abandon old prejudices, class warriors need to do likewise.

67 percent is not a ‘vast majority’ FH.

 

[SmallTown]

67 percent is not a ‘vast majority’ FH.

It's certainly a majority though? 7/10 being bigger than 3/10

 

[The Ruthsayer]

It's certainly a majority though? 7/10 being bigger than 3/10

At last, something we agree on! (Though it’s closer to 2/3 than 7/10).

 

[Frozen Horse]

67 percent is not a ‘vast majority’ FH.

It is. State school student outnumber the rest two to one.
I'm told the Tories had a landslide majority at the last election with 56% of the seats.

Maybe not an overwhelming majority of 80-90%, but I think we're dabbling in semantics now.

 

[NYboro]

I didn't say we'd achieved meritocracy yet.

...but we have achieved levelling down to the lowest common denominator.

 

[NYboro]

It is. State school student outnumber the rest two to one.
I'm told the Tories had a landslide majority at the last election with 56% of the seats.

Maybe not an overwhelming majority of 80-90%, but I think we're dabbling in semantics now.

...and 43.6% of the vote.

 

[BoroMart]

It is. State school student outnumber the rest two to one.
I'm told the Tories had a landslide majority at the last election with 56% of the seats.

Maybe not an overwhelming majority of 80-90%, but I think we're dabbling in semantics now.

it may be a majority of students but it's still 450% over allocated to private educated students.

 

[Frozen Horse]

it may be a majority of students but it's still 450% over allocated to private educated students.

I acknowledged the overrepresentation earlier, and that needs to change further. However, it's irrelevant to whether or not the majority of students at Oxbridge are public school or not.

Pick a random Oxbridge undergraduate and the likelihood is they'll be state educated. The stereotype of of them as a public school toff is now the preserve of dinosaurs and bigots

 

[BoroMart]

I acknowledged the overrepresentation earlier, and that needs to change further. However, it's irrelevant to whether or not the majority of students at Oxbridge are public school or not.

Pick a random Oxbridge undergraduate and the likelihood is they'll be state educated. The stereotype of of them as a public school toff is now the preserve of dinosaurs and bigots

my point is that stereotype still exists, and is still prominent in public office. That's neither the preserve of dinosaurs or bigots, it's simply the facts of the current world we live in

 

[The Ruthsayer]

I acknowledged the overrepresentation earlier, and that needs to change further. However, it's irrelevant to whether or not the majority of students at Oxbridge are public school or not.

Pick a random Oxbridge undergraduate and the likelihood is they'll be state educated. The stereotype of of them as a public school toff is now the preserve of dinosaurs and bigots

I think that is a fair point FH, but we have perhaps been conflating the concept of a 'public school toff' with the unjust and unfair access that the privileged route (public school and Oxbridge) confers on the lucky recipients. By this I mean access to high government office, (44 of 57 prime ministers went to Oxbridge and 65% of the current cabinet went to non-state schools), the law and other professions.
For these figures to be defensible, we would have to accept that wealthier class are naturally more intelligent than those going to state schools.

 

[BoroMart]

For these figures to be defensible, we would have to accept that wealthier class are naturally more intelligent than those going to state schools.

and of course we have the evidence that isn't the case, as so many high profile public figures are absolute idiots.

 

[Cardiffdaffs]

Yep same debate another year.

 

[FishofContemplation]

I can't find any evidence of this? {Paying for the boat race itself that is) I imagine they pay for the COVERAGE? Which makes it the same as every single program on the BBC? I find tennis dull and elitist. Yet I understand MY taxes also go on showing a tennis tournament every summer?

They don’t go on showing either tennis or rowing. The BBC’s domestic services aren’t funded from taxation.