The Boat Race(s)

As someone who had no chance of going to Oxbridge, I'm obviously commenting on something I know very little about (as do many people on this message board) but my understanding is that there are almost two broad groups of people at Oxbridge:-

1) The old Etonians / other public school toffs, probably reading History of Art or PPE and probably spending most time with other people of that ilk, burning £20 notes in front of homeless people / smashing up bars / popping to "Verbs" for the weekend etc. Think Johnson, Cameron etc

2) Everyone else, many of whom are from much more humble backgrounds and have worked bloody hard to get there, probably read Chemistry or Law and spend most of their time trying to avoid the people in group 1, whilst struggling to survive in the days of non grant education and the ban on extra curricular jobs (if that's still a thing). Some of these people are probably middle class in that their parents were university educated too, some may be from council estates and the first to go to university in their family, but they are not "toffs".

Rarely do the two groups mix.
Well said
 
I din't argue anything about private education to be fair. You brought that up. I was arguing that the boat race is fine, it brings in 10 million or so viewers (both non TV and in person) and to be upset about it is pure reverse snobbery. Nothing more.
that's your opinion presented as facts!
 
No you misunderstanding. The viewing and attendance figures are actually facts. Unlike your "Eton former pupils" line which wad the opposite of a fact
Your conclusion is that "anyone that has an issue with it is reverse snobbery", that to be clear is your opinion, presented as a fact.

My word, you do twist and conflate every single interaction with pretty much every board member to be such a painful experience. There are far more respectful ways to have these debates you know.
 
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I sometimes see Cambridge Uni rowing teams training on the river at Ely when I'm driving past picking my kids up(or taking them back).
 
Well said
As someone who had no chance of going to Oxbridge, I'm obviously commenting on something I know very little about (as do many people on this message board) but my understanding is that there are almost two broad groups of people at Oxbridge:-

1) The old Etonians / other public school toffs, probably reading History of Art or PPE and probably spending most time with other people of that ilk, burning £20 notes in front of homeless people / smashing up bars / popping to "Verbs" for the weekend etc. Think Johnson, Cameron etc

2) Everyone else, many of whom are from much more humble backgrounds and have worked bloody hard to get there, probably read Chemistry or Law and spend most of their time trying to avoid the people in group 1, whilst struggling to survive in the days of non grant education and the ban on extra curricular jobs (if that's still a thing). Some of these people are probably middle class in that their parents were university educated too, some may be from council estates and the first to go to university in their family, but they are not "toffs".

Rarely do the two groups
As an observation LJ I would not disagree, but I'm wondering what point you are making? My point has been that the boat race is an encapsulation of undeserved privilege. The latest data shows that 33% of Oxbridge undergrads came from non-state schools. A dramatic improvement on previous decades, but 94% of pupils attend state schools. I think we can all appreciate the arithmetic, irrespective of our education.
 
As an observation LJ I would not disagree, but I'm wondering what point you are making? My point has been that the boat race is an encapsulation of undeserved privilege. The latest data shows that 33% of Oxbridge undergrads came from non-state schools. A dramatic improvement on previous decades, but 94% of pupils attend state schools. I think we can all appreciate the arithmetic, irrespective of our education.
Yup that's about a 450% over representation. As you say a lot better.

Back in 1920 it was only 20% of oxbridge that were state educated. So I guess it's been a slow improvement to reach the giddy heights of 67% representation.

At this rate another 54 years, or there abouts and we might have fair representation.
 
Your conclusion is that "anyone that has an issue with it is reverse snobbery", that to be clear is your opinion, presented as a fact.

My word, you do twist and conflate every single interaction with pretty much every board member to be such a painful experience. There are far more respectful ways to have these debates you know.
I don't think that was my conclusion. My conclusion was that you were showing reverse snobbery. I came to this by reading stuff like your posts against "old Etonians" and they like. You seem to be complaining about how I deliver my opinion. Yet it's exactly the language you use that is clear you're interested in class warfare
 
I don't think that was my conclusion. My conclusion was that you were showing reverse snobbery. I came to this by reading stuff like your posts against "old Etonians" and they like. You seem to be complaining about how I deliver my opinion. Yet it's exactly the language you use that is clear you're interested in class warfare
So I say you've come to the conclusion that this is "reverse snobbery", and you say "no, I've come to the conclusion that this is reverse snobbery.....my word, this is like wading through treacle.

Nope, I'm so done with Smalltown, I've tried to defend him from the barrage of attacks at times, but I just cannot be bothered with this attitude, dishonest debate, disrespectful behaviour, constant attacks on people, unyielding, relentless, word salad of nonsense. There's nothing to be gained from conversing with him, no enlightenment, no joy, he's an energy vampire, sucking the joy out of the world.

I've got better things to do with my time than engage with this nonsense, so I'll block like so many others have done, eventually he'll just be hollering at himself.
 
So I say you've come to the conclusion that this is "reverse snobbery", and you say "no, I've come to the conclusion that this is reverse snobbery.....my word, this is like wading through treacle.

Nope, I'm so done with Smalltown, I've tried to defend him from the barrage of attacks at times, but I just cannot be bothered with this attitude, dishonest debate, disrespectful behaviour, constant attacks on people, unyielding, relentless, word salad of nonsense. There's nothing to be gained from conversing with him, no enlightenment, no joy, he's an energy vampire, sucking the joy out of the world.

I've got better things to do with my time than engage with this nonsense, so I'll block like so many others have done, eventually he'll just be hollering at himself.
Just to be clear. I was correcting the fact you thought I thought everyone who whined about the boat race was showing reverse snobbery. Only the people who used typical class warrior language. Such as yourself

I don't know what you're getting so upset about I really don't can you really not see how using phrases like "old Etonians" and complaining about elitism looks like reverse snobbery? I know you're cross because it's a usual way of being on here. A lot of people like that class warfare stuff so I get it. I jaut can't get why you would he so stroppy about it. Such an over reaction
 
As an observation LJ I would not disagree, but I'm wondering what point you are making? My point has been that the boat race is an encapsulation of undeserved privilege. The latest data shows that 33% of Oxbridge undergrads came from non-state schools. A dramatic improvement on previous decades, but 94% of pupils attend state schools. I think we can all appreciate the arithmetic, irrespective of our education.

My point was almost a parallel one to the topic of the Boat Race, and was more about how throwaway comments like old Eonians = Oxbridge and the like. My point was purely that not everyone who goes to these universities is a braying oaf straight out of the playing fields of Eton or Harrow.

There's far more nuance to the private school = toff line than that's often trotted out on here. I know scaffolders and butchers who have sent their kids to private school, it doesn't suddenly turn them into Jacob Rees-Mogg overnight.
 
My point was almost a parallel one to the topic of the Boat Race, and was more about how throwaway comments like old Eonians = Oxbridge and the like. My point was purely that not everyone who goes to these universities is a braying oaf straight out of the playing fields of Eton or Harrow.

There's far more nuance to the private school = toff line than that's often trotted out on here. I know scaffolders and butchers who have sent their kids to private school, it doesn't suddenly turn them into Jacob Rees-Mogg overnight.
Let’s not pretend that your two examples are anything but outliers to the norm. Private school is largely populated by the upper and middle classes, almost exclusively. Grammar schools are not far behind largely middle class.

The school with the highest number of entrants to oxbridge is regularly Westminster School a 32k toff school where alumni include such working class heroes as Helena Bonham-Carter, Nigel Lawson, Andrew Lloyd-Webber and Nick Clegg. I’d seriously doubt schools like that have the sons of brickies and plasterers.

The stereotype of private school kids and fairly wealthy backgrounds is not without merit. In fact in the vast majority of cases it is bang on the money, if you pardon the pun
 
My point was almost a parallel one to the topic of the Boat Race, and was more about how throwaway comments like old Eonians = Oxbridge and the like. My point was purely that not everyone who goes to these universities is a braying oaf straight out of the playing fields of Eton or Harrow.

There's far more nuance to the private school = toff line than that's often trotted out on here. I know scaffolders and butchers who have sent their kids to private school, it doesn't suddenly turn them into Jacob Rees-Mogg overnight.
I would agree with this. I have quite a few friends who went to private school, but all for different reasons, some were army brats, some had parents who sacrificed their own money because they thought it was important for the kids and a few did come from money. I think the problem is, we can stereotype based on what school people went to or where they are form but it doesn't really help us, because people are people. Yes the ruling class are a major major problem and yes they are mainly all privately educated. But it doesn't then follow that EVERY Privately educated person is bad for the country or that they can't be privately educated and working class. I guess that's where I'm coming from with the boat race. These people COULD go on to work in politics but the could just go on to be normal people, contributing to society. To be upset about the class system is fine, and to be angry that it is unfair is also fine. But to be angry that young sportsmen and woman are competing in a historic event, something they've trained for years for, and being angry at the millions that watch it doesnt sit well with me.
 
My point was almost a parallel one to the topic of the Boat Race, and was more about how throwaway comments like old Eonians = Oxbridge and the like. My point was purely that not everyone who goes to these universities is a braying oaf straight out of the playing fields of Eton or Harrow.

Around 70% of Oxbridge students are from state schools.

You can argue that is still underrepresentation, which is true, and that that number has grown significantly over the years, so it hasn't always been true.

However, they are the vast majority. If they're prepared to abandon old prejudices, class warriors need to do likewise.
 
Around 70% of Oxbridge students are from state schools.

You can argue that is still underrepresentation, which is true, and that that number has grown significantly over the years, so it hasn't always been true.

However, they are the vast majority. If they're prepared to abandon old prejudices, class warriors need to do likewise.
Well when there is fair representation across society then maybe. That starts at the very top with PMs and high ranking civil service positions dished put to friend with the right school ties. As well as the misrepresentation in universities.

I mean this is akin to saying the level of racism isn’t the same as it was in the 60s so stop fighting for race equality
 
Around 70% of Oxbridge students are from state schools.

You can argue that is still underrepresentation, which is true, and that that number has grown significantly over the years, so it hasn't always been true.

However, they are the vast majority. If they're prepared to abandon old prejudices, class warriors need to do likewise.
Well said
 
Well when there is fair representation across society then maybe. That starts at the very top with PMs and high ranking civil service positions dished put to friend with the right school ties. As well as the misrepresentation in universities.

I'm all for breaking the link between Eton and the cabinet.

However, Oxbridge will always be overrepresented in the government. They do still have the ability to attract the brightest students, and they'll increase this by opening themselves up to state schools. We might well see an increase in the percentage of Oxbridge prime ministers.

We do have to be careful using the word "elitism". Senior government positions are elite positions. We don't want the common man in those positions: I love the guys I have a pint with, but I wouldn't seriously trust them with public office. We want the outstanding, the brilliant, the elite. However, elite should be defined in terms of ability, not social class. Oxbridge has been associated with elitism defined by social class in the past. However, Oxbridge will remain associated with elitism if it truly becomes defined as a meritocracy.
 
. Senior government positions are elite positions. We don't want the common man in those positions: I love the guys I have a pint with, but I wouldn't seriously trust them with public office. We want the outstanding, the brilliant, the elite.

Yep we want people like James Cleverly, Jonathan Gullis, Lee Anderson Matt Hancock, Theresa Coffey etc, the real outstanding and brilliant minds we need to run this country ;)
 
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