Waco - new on Neflix

Brian Marwood

Well-known member
Anyone seen this yet? I watched it last night and felt they were trying to portray David Koresh as a victim and the US Govt as the aggressor.
 
Not seen it yet, but there is also a new Waco related series on HBO showtime which I really fancy. Got the brilliant Michael Shannon leading it.

 
I mean the ATF were the aggressors, not saying Koresh wasn't a stockpiling weapons, but they hadnt done anything illegal with them yet. What they did the to the branch dividians ended up fueling the Neo-Nazi movement and Timothy McVeigh.
 
I mean the ATF were the aggressors, not saying Koresh wasn't a stockpiling weapons, but they hadnt done anything illegal with them yet. What they did the to the branch dividians ended up fueling the Neo-Nazi movement and Timothy McVeigh.
Not sure the ATF could just sit/stand there while he stockpiled an arsenal like that...
 
I mean the ATF were the aggressors, not saying Koresh wasn't a stockpiling weapons, but they hadnt done anything illegal with them yet. What they did the to the branch dividians ended up fueling the Neo-Nazi movement and Timothy McVeigh.
Ah the old stockpiling weapons lie.

Waco commune had less guns per head than is average in the state of texas.
 
What does that mean? That all the weapons in Texas divided by all the people gives you a number per person that should be used to determine if what Koresh was up to was ok?
 
What does that mean? That all the weapons in Texas divided by all the people gives you a number per person that should be used to determine if what Koresh was up to was ok?
no it was an average number of guns per household, per head, as I recall
 
Also a quick google suggests the agreed number of weapons found was 300 - for 80 adults, nearly 4 per person and that doesn’t include the grenades. There’s no conclusive data on how many guns are in Texas but most studies put it around 1.2 per person.
 
Also a quick google suggests the agreed number of weapons found was 300 - for 80 adults, nearly 4 per person and that doesn’t include the grenades. There’s no conclusive data on how many guns are in Texas but most studies put it around 1.2 per person.
Not in 1993, in 1993 the average was 4 point something. The ATF relied on the number of weapons for the lie, because there were many adults there. Secondly, there is no age limit in texas to own a gun, so it shouldn't be divided by the adults alone.
 
There was far fewer guns per person in Texas in 1993
Not sure there was, but you ignored the error in the calculations. I am remembering the newspaper articles from the time. Haven't seen the netflix show and I probably won't watch it. The FBI lied about child abuse to support their warrant, without it they wouldn't have got the warrant and they wouldn't have been there and the 4 agents and multiple cjildren and adults in the compound would likely still be alive.

It was, quite possibly, a blatant constitutionally illegal warrant. If that fact is true, and I don'tknow if it is or not, the authorities needlessly caused the slaughter of dozens of people.
 
I think you might have miss read the wiki, Texas has no specific laws on age restriction but instead mirrors federal law and the restriction is 18/21 years depending on what kind of gun.

The 1993 guns per head in Texas was significantly less that 4 per person.
 
I think you might have miss read the wiki, Texas has no specific laws on age restriction but instead mirrors federal law and the restriction is 18/21 years depending on what kind of gun.

The 1993 guns per head in Texas was significantly less that 4 per person.
I think that is to carry a gun in public, not to own a gun.

Through the late 80's and early 90's the ATF suffered massively under congressional overreach and waco was, probably the culmination of that overreach.

The compound had a good relationship with their neighbours and ran a legal firearms business. The ATF wanted a public siege and takedown of Koresh to rehabilitate their public image. They could have arrested Koresh whilst outside the compound, they chose not to. Why would that be? As I recall 5 semi-automatic weapons were found in the compound that had been converted to fully automatic. This, however was not known prior to the raid.

Shortly after the siege the then DA, don't remember her name, but she was a woman, told the world, they had a mountain of evidence that the children in the compound had been sexually abused. There was no evidence of this prior to the raid, and none emerged after the raid.

A director of the cult awareness group claimed that she knows how these cults work and there is always sexual abuse of the children. No evidence, and in fact a complete lie about religious cults more generally.

The FBI later claimed that Koresh and his followers fired the first shot, and FBI agent contests that and under oath claimed that the FBI fired first.

No one needed to die, that people did was down to, first the ATF then the FBI. I think all the ATF had was a sucspicion that, registered arms dealers, were "stockpiling" ileagal weapons, and it's a cult, so they are abusing the children.

It was congressional overreach sanctioned by Clinton.
 
Not seen it yet, but there is also a new Waco related series on HBO showtime which I really fancy. Got the brilliant Michael Shannon leading it.

Saw that a couple of yrs ago. It is very good, tries to give a balanced account. Based on the book co-written by one of the survivors and by the FBI coordinator (played by Michael Sheen).
Neither side comes out of it with any credit but the FBI does appear to manipulate things to justify an attack.

A sequel, Waco: The Aftermath, is due out this year.
 
Anyone seen this yet? I watched it last night and felt they were trying to portray David Koresh as a victim and the US Govt as the aggressor.
It did seem that way. Those Davidian's and that compound seemed to embody everything that the US claims to stand for, right to bear arms, in god we trust and all of that jazz. The ATF and the FBI came in really heavy handed and were met with US citizens standing up for their rights. It reminded me of a few things really.. the Tiananmen Square protests and massacre.. and the subsequent government control of the narrative and also in some respects the Manson Family.. in that it was a large group of organised idealists. Both are obviously extreme examples but there are other groups like the Amish who do not attract the same sort of governmental interference or destruction as those.. the FBI and ATF were very quick to label these Davidists as terrorists and continued to describe them as such through the documentary. The quick takeaway from the documentary was that the government were concerned about a large organised group and moved in to take them out as soon as possible. David Koresh's influence over those people seemed to be extensive and all conquering.. in a country where scientology thrives and mormonism continues to exist, television evangelists grow ever popular.. its not out of the question that this guy could have ended up being America's 2nd coming.. because of course the next jesus would be American
 
I think that is to carry a gun in public, not to own a gun.

Through the late 80's and early 90's the ATF suffered massively under congressional overreach and waco was, probably the culmination of that overreach.

The compound had a good relationship with their neighbours and ran a legal firearms business. The ATF wanted a public siege and takedown of Koresh to rehabilitate their public image. They could have arrested Koresh whilst outside the compound, they chose not to. Why would that be? As I recall 5 semi-automatic weapons were found in the compound that had been converted to fully automatic. This, however was not known prior to the raid.

Shortly after the siege the then DA, don't remember her name, but she was a woman, told the world, they had a mountain of evidence that the children in the compound had been sexually abused. There was no evidence of this prior to the raid, and none emerged after the raid.

A director of the cult awareness group claimed that she knows how these cults work and there is always sexual abuse of the children. No evidence, and in fact a complete lie about religious cults more generally.

The FBI later claimed that Koresh and his followers fired the first shot, and FBI agent contests that and under oath claimed that the FBI fired first.

No one needed to die, that people did was down to, first the ATF then the FBI. I think all the ATF had was a sucspicion that, registered arms dealers, were "stockpiling" ileagal weapons, and it's a cult, so they are abusing the children.

It was congressional overreach sanctioned by Clinton.
It's not nor was legal to own a gun under 18 in Texas, it's easy to check that fact. 12 year old can use a gun at a range but thats not ownership. guns have to be registered to a person 18 years or over, thats federal law.

There are numerous witness statements from victims and former members of the Branch Dividians detailing child abuse. It's not even hard to find so I'm not sure where you're getting info from. Kathy Shroeder former member actually defends Koresh and says "However, these girls weren't underage because in our belief system you come of age at 12" - thats a follower saying its ok to have sex with a 33 years old man at 12.

There are some very disturbing accounts reported from court proceedings including one witness account on the stand in 1995 from a 14 year old who was forced to have sex with Koresh when she was 7 whilst being taught how to kill your self with a gun in the mouth. It s all widely avaible if you look and a matter of public record.

However so far I've found nothing relating to them having a good relationship with the local people, in fact the opposite, but that doesn't really mean anything either way.

No one needed to die? David Koresh spent the preceding 10 years before the incident telling his followers they would all die in a bloody gun battle, all of the survivors and witnesses state that was a central part of their belief.

The fbi found 48 illegal fully automatic weapons found, not 5 semis. they also found grenades and silencers.

Re Clinton, he became president on January the 20th of 1993, the investigation into Koresh had been going in May 92 and they went in on the 28th of Feb 93.
Clinton had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Where are you getting your information from?
 
It's not nor was legal to own a gun under 18 in Texas, it's easy to check that fact. 12 year old can use a gun at a range but thats not ownership. guns have to be registered to a person 18 years or over, thats federal law.

There are numerous witness statements from victims and former members of the Branch Dividians detailing child abuse. It's not even hard to find so I'm not sure where you're getting info from. Kathy Shroeder former member actually defends Koresh and says "However, these girls weren't underage because in our belief system you come of age at 12" - thats a follower saying its ok to have sex with a 33 years old man at 12.

There are some very disturbing accounts reported from court proceedings including one witness account on the stand in 1995 from a 14 year old who was forced to have sex with Koresh when she was 7 whilst being taught how to kill your self with a gun in the mouth. It s all widely avaible if you look and a matter of public record.

However so far I've found nothing relating to them having a good relationship with the local people, in fact the opposite, but that doesn't really mean anything either way.

No one needed to die? David Koresh spent the preceding 10 years before the incident telling his followers they would all die in a bloody gun battle, all of the survivors and witnesses state that was a central part of their belief.

The fbi found 48 illegal fully automatic weapons found, not 5 semis. they also found grenades and silencers.

Re Clinton, he became president on January the 20th of 1993, the investigation into Koresh had been going in May 92 and they went in on the 28th of Feb 93.
Clinton had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Where are you getting your information from?
I have meetings from 12.30 I'll address this later today.
 
It's not nor was legal to own a gun under 18 in Texas, it's easy to check that fact. 12 year old can use a gun at a range but thats not ownership. guns have to be registered to a person 18 years or over, thats federal law.

There are numerous witness statements from victims and former members of the Branch Dividians detailing child abuse. It's not even hard to find so I'm not sure where you're getting info from. Kathy Shroeder former member actually defends Koresh and says "However, these girls weren't underage because in our belief system you come of age at 12" - thats a follower saying its ok to have sex with a 33 years old man at 12.

There are some very disturbing accounts reported from court proceedings including one witness account on the stand in 1995 from a 14 year old who was forced to have sex with Koresh when she was 7 whilst being taught how to kill your self with a gun in the mouth. It s all widely avaible if you look and a matter of public record.

However so far I've found nothing relating to them having a good relationship with the local people, in fact the opposite, but that doesn't really mean anything either way.

No one needed to die? David Koresh spent the preceding 10 years before the incident telling his followers they would all die in a bloody gun battle, all of the survivors and witnesses state that was a central part of their belief.

The fbi found 48 illegal fully automatic weapons found, not 5 semis. they also found grenades and silencers.

Re Clinton, he became president on January the 20th of 1993, the investigation into Koresh had been going in May 92 and they went in on the 28th of Feb 93.
Clinton had absolutely nothing to do with it.

Where are you getting your information from?
Still in meetings, but here is a washington post article from just after the siege. Worth reading as it highlights what was known at the time, as well as some "evidence" that came to light afterwards.

There was nothing actionable prior to the raid, and anything that came soon after was unactionable. Of course you can interpret the evidence as you please. The fact remain it was a raid based on the flimsiest of evidence. Clealry clinton had plenty to do with it.

 
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