What a sorry, sorry state our club is in

It *feels* like it’s in a state but two wins and we’re flying again. It’s the nature of the division we’re in. Seasons are alive until March, you’re three or four results from the dotted line at either end of the table.

It’s a bit messy but nothing a couple of good results won’t fix.
I genuinely can't believe you have posted this.
We are in the bottom 3 of a poor Championship, with our worst start in history.
We are short of quality and bodies in midfield and short of quality up front.
We have an owner with no vision, a track record of incredible failure over 16 years, no intention of investing and a control freak.
We have a Head of Football
The Club is the 5th worst in British Football for shareholder value, book value of the club - is 5th most technically insolvent.
 
I genuinely can't believe you have posted this.
We are in the bottom 3 of a poor Championship, with our worst start in history.
We are short of quality and bodies in midfield and short of quality up front.
We have an owner with no vision, a track record of incredible failure over 16 years, no intention of investing and a control freak.
We have a Head of Football
The Club is the 5th worst in British Football for shareholder value, book value of the club - is 5th most technically insolvent.
I’m not saying there aren’t issues, big issues, but if you’re taking this approach then presumably you won’t be able to enjoy a win tomorrow night or on Saturday or whenever the next one comes?

Which is kind of my point. People want the team to win. This group of players went on a run last season. The manager has gone and if a new one freshens the place up going into January, everything feels different. Put some wins together and momentum and positivity builds.

We had all of these conversations about the chairman losing his way just before Karanka arrived.

If it’s true that Wilder was in for the Burnley job, what do you think Gibson should’ve done about it?
 
I’m not saying there aren’t issues, big issues, but if you’re taking this approach then presumably you won’t be able to enjoy a win tomorrow night or on Saturday or whenever the next one comes?

Which is kind of my point. People want the team to win. This group of players went on a run last season. The manager has gone and if a new one freshens the place up going into January, everything feels different. Put some wins together and momentum and positivity builds.

We had all of these conversations about the chairman losing his way just before Karanka arrived.

If it’s true that Wilder was in for the Burnley job, what do you think Gibson should’ve done about it?
This group didn’t go on a run last season at all! It is a completely different squad. How is everything different? Gibbo? Still here. Bausor? Still here. Scott? Still here.

Come on, at least write the true facts - not what you would hope are the true facts.
 
I’m not saying there aren’t issues, big issues, but if you’re taking this approach then presumably you won’t be able to enjoy a win tomorrow night or on Saturday or whenever the next one comes?
You're better than that Viv. I am a massive Middlesbrough FC supporter and I ALWAYS want us to win and ALWAYS celebrate one. Neither do I take them for granted.
We had all of these conversations about the chairman losing his way just before Karanka arrived.
He most definitely HAD lost his way, hence the involvement of Kenyon. We imploded again when Gibson decided he needed no support again.
If it’s true that Wilder was in for the Burnley job, what do you think Gibson should’ve done about it?
Nobody knows what Wilder has or hasn't done with regards any other job.
But if Gibson felt so offended and his values compromised by something, then I would expect him to act then, or at the very least at the end of the season. He didn't.
In any case I simply have zero faith or trust in Steve Gibson. To paraphrase his cocky remark, I think "If Steve Gibson told me the sun was shining, I'd open the curtains and check for myself".
 
It seems that the different directions of pull that Warnock alluded to have not been resolved under Wilder, the club knocking back signings Wilder identified and Wilder refusing to play players bought by Scott and the recruitment team, for me Warnock and Wilder have achieved more in the game than Scott but it seems that Scott is the side Gibson is backing, especially if we go with Edwards based on his relationship with Scott.

It's a gamble and if it doesn't pull off then we are in danger of having to recut our cloth and rein in our ambitions, the promise of square pegs in square holes has not materialised, the impression we've improved personnel at both ends of the field is not backed up by the stats, in fact on XG we're missing more easy chances and conceding more preventable goals, the midfield suffering from ennui and the energy and press that was evident in Wilder's early games completely gone, it wasn't only Tav that was providing that so whilst selling him has weakened the team it should not of altered the strategy, especially out of possession.

Much is made of Wilder's tactical inflexibility but I'm of the opposite view that the players were unable to execute the plans that Wilderball gave them, in defence especially we never seemed to work as a cohesive unit, one dropping as two pushed, both full backs pushing on and centre halves been pulled out of position into midfield to create space in the channels.

Firstly, we need a cogent transfer and recruitment system, whether that be Scott purchases and the new man coaches or whether that is done by committee but only players fully agreed by all parties should be purchased.

Secondly, we need a system and pattern of play that maximises the talent we currently have and sets a foundation that in time evolves as we recruit to suit, a footballing DNA if you like, one that we can understand and see progress without knee-jerk reactions when we hit the inevitable bumps in the road.

Thirdly, we need to move away from track record managers and invest in potential rather than proof, identify up and coming managers, coaches who are looking to move into management and ex-players who have the right personalities to execute the plan set out above.

It feels very much crossroads time and a defining point in an era, will Gibson's legacy be Icarusian, a bright start that collapsed as we flew too close to the sun, or Daedalusian, where the early glory days are followed by a long stable retirement, the next appointment will very much determine the direction we go as a club.
 
Wilder gone - and on results can have little to complain about- or is it that simple? Recruitment leaving us bare upfront - muniz being the notable exception. A midfield that despite letting go Tav and Payero( yes there is a player there) was not replenished with a midfielder able to create. Left with little more than ponderous plodders.

ST: Muniz, Akpom, Watmore, Forss, Hoppe, Kavanagh, Finch and with Coburn out on loan

MF: Crooks, Howson, McGree, Fletcher, Luongo, Hackney, Mowett.. we’re alright
 
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Forgot about Kenyon, imagine where we'd be if we had fully committed to the DoF model then, with him at the helm. Not in the bottom 3 of the Championship I would imagine.

Another could (should?) have been.....
 
This group didn’t go on a run last season at all! It is a completely different squad. How is everything different? Gibbo? Still here. Bausor? Still here. Scott? Still here.

Come on, at least write the true facts - not what you would hope are the true facts.
Dijksteel, Fry, Crooks, Jones, Bola, Howson, McNair, Watmore, McGree. The core is the same. We’ve only added Lenihan and Clarke to that in terms of longer-term permanent deals. Only Tav, Lumley and Taylor are missing from the group. Most would argue that Steffen and Giles are better players than the two they replaced anyway. Muniz is better than Connolly and Balogun. The huge Tav-shaped hole is indisputable.

To my mind the issue with recruitment - aside from Tav - is that we’ve padded out the squad instead of going for real quality. Could we have spent the money on Lenihan and Clarke on one top class Championship defender instead of two decent-ish ones? Could we have clubbed the Forss and Hoppe money together and got someone the manager truly wanted instead of two who just collect splinters? Tommy Smith or Joe Gibson? Massimo Luongo or Hayden Hackney? Mowatt or Payero? At least if we were set on developing youth players, work with Hackney or Coburn and don’t sign Mowatt or Luongo or Forss.

There’s confusion there. The next appointment will tell us a LOT about how good this new structure actually is and whether it functions properly.

I’m not saying the club or those running it are blameless because when a manager is sacked with the team in 22nd it’s a reflection of a collective failure IMO. They all have questions to answer. It’s just a shame none of them could be arsed to speak to Tees last night or hold the usual press conference.
 
You're better than that Viv. I am a massive Middlesbrough FC supporter and I ALWAYS want us to win and ALWAYS celebrate one. Neither do I take them for granted.

He most definitely HAD lost his way, hence the involvement of Kenyon. We imploded again when Gibson decided he needed no support again.

Nobody knows what Wilder has or hasn't done with regards any other job.
But if Gibson felt so offended and his values compromised by something, then I would expect him to act then, or at the very least at the end of the season. He didn't.
In any case I simply have zero faith or trust in Steve Gibson. To paraphrase his cocky remark, I think "If Steve Gibson told me the sun was shining, I'd open the curtains and check for myself".
You have very anti Gibson feelings and of course that’s fair enough. You have been very consistent about that over the years from reading your posts.

Just curious to know. Have you ever met him personally to feel this way? I sense you must have done and didn’t like what you saw. That’s not surprising. He can be a very ruthless individual with people who cross him. You definitely come across as somebody who has had personal experience with the man.

I recall what somebody told me in MSS years ago who, accidentally mind, happened to cross him. I don’t want to repeat the details but they were best intentions. He was summarily hauled across an open fire with a sharp response. Gibson is very passionate that there is no doubt. He’s has also proved to be fiercely loyal at times ( a strength in some respects and a weakness in others) and he has been politically Ill advised on other occasions. He has proved to be an excellent businessman and a talisman football chairman Do I trust his judgement? No I’m not sure I do, but do I trust him as a person of honour? Yes I think so.
 
You have very anti Gibson feelings and of course that’s fair enough. You have been very consistent about that over the years from reading your posts.

Just curious to know. Have you ever met him personally to feel this way? I sense you must have done and didn’t like what you saw. That’s not surprising. He can be a very ruthless individual with people who cross him. You definitely come across as somebody who has had personal experience with the man.

I recall what somebody told me in MSS years ago who, accidentally mind, happened to cross him. I don’t want to repeat the details but they were best intentions. He was summarily hauled across an open fire with a sharp response. Gibson is very passionate that there is no doubt. He’s has also proved to be fiercely loyal at times ( a strength in some respects and a weakness in others) and he has been politically Ill advised on other occasions. He has proved to be an excellent businessman and a talisman football chairman Do I trust his judgement? No I’m not sure I do, but do I trust him as a person of honour? Yes I think so.
I can name at least 8 players who played last season now gonE - so I put it to your generalisation is incorrect.

Recruitment has been poor - yet again. Frankly the club needs to be run in a far more professional manner than it is.

You trust Gibbo? Fair enough. All I see is a failed owner/ chairman whose expensive train set hardly fulfills its purpose.

And it’s been the same for years.
 
I can name at least 8 players who played last season now gonE - so I put it to your generalisation is incorrect.

Recruitment has been poor - yet again. Frankly the club needs to be tun in a far more professional manner than it is.

You trust Gibbo? Fair enough. All I see is a failed owner/ chairman whose expensive train set hardly fulfills its purpose.

And it’s been the same for years.
Sorry I don’t understand your 8 players comment. To which point or “generalisation” of mine are you responding?. I have already said that I don’t particularly trust his judgement so your comments are a bit puzzling?
 
Forgot about Kenyon, imagine where we'd be if we had fully committed to the DoF model then, with him at the helm. Not in the bottom 3 of the Championship I would imagine.

Another could (should?) have been.....
I don't think he was ever here long term. I imagine his wages and fee would be eye watering for a club our size. Wasn't it more of a favour to Gibson?
 
I can name at least 8 players who played last season now gonE - so I put it to your generalisation is incorrect.

Recruitment has been poor - yet again. Frankly the club needs to be run in a far more professional manner than it is.

You trust Gibbo? Fair enough. All I see is a failed owner/ chairman whose expensive train set hardly fulfills its purpose.

And it’s been the same for years.
11 players here still here from last year..

————————Daniels————————
————-Dijksteel—Fry—McNair————-
Jones—Crooks—Howson—McGree—Bola
——————Akpom—Watmore—————
 
11 players here still here from last year..

————————Daniels————————
————-Dijksteel—Fry—McNair————-
Jones—Crooks—Howson—McGree—Bola
——————Akpom—Watmore—————
And that team would be nowhere near a top 6 side. Thanks for listing, Newy
 
I can name at least 8 players from last season that played a part - so I put it to your generalisation is incorrect.

Recruitment has been poor - yet again. Frankly the club needs to be tun in a far more professional manner than it is.

You trust Gibbo? Fair enough. All I see is a failed owner/ chairman whose expensive train set hardly fulfills its purpose.

And it’s been the same for years.
With respect, having read your posts on here I think you are one of a handful of posters that find it hard to reach any balance in your views and this thread is no different.

We are one of a number of clubs within a similar budget, behind the ones with the benefit of parachute payments. Our chances of promotion, given the odds and the context are marginal, that's a fact, but as fans we also expect us to challenge and I'm sure that's out ambition.

Wilder, despite the benefit of hindsight, remained a good appointment at the material time, and beyond, for a large part of last season.

Achieving success in football, in terms of recruiting the right manager and the right players is notoriously difficult - just a casual look at the PL, Championship and League 1 provides ample evidence of failed transfers and unsuccessful managerial appointments.

Why would you presume Boro should be any different in these respects?

With the exception of Woodgate, who was a cheap option I think, I'm not sure that any managerial choice was obviously flawed in itself. Rather, the issue has always been the lack of longer term plan, given each new appointment brings in a whole bunch of new players capable of playing to their desired system.

With a DofF and and redesigned scouting team, I can actually see obvious evidence that the club is actively addressing gaps in our strategy.

But it's a journey and won't be achieved overnight, as sone fans unrealistically seem to expect.

I'm not saying the club is ran perfectly, and mistakes will without doubt still be made, but we are financially sustainable and have an owner who values our identity and history.

The way things worked out with CW were disappointing, but there's lots to be encouraged about despite that.
 
ST: Muniz, Akpom, Watmore, Forss, Hoppe, Kavanagh, Finch and with Coburn out on loan

MF: Crooks, Howson, McGree, Fletcher, Luongo, Hackney, Mowett.. we’re alright
One of those strikers at most would start in a top 6 side and possibly one midfielder at a push. We are far from alright
 
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