What makes a good keeper

Bruce

Well-known member
Saw this buried in the Isaiah Jones thread and thought it deserved its own thread

It's an interesting thing in football these days where traditional goalkeeping skills come second to being good technically with the ball at their feet, so a player who might not be that good when it comes to making saves still gets picked ahead of better keepers because they can ping the ball about a bit and it's deemed as worth the trade off.

I think in the 90s and early 2000s someone like David De Gea would be considered one of the best keepers in the world, cause by and large his shot-stopping and reflexes are, for the most part, fantastic, and that type of thing is all that mattered. These days he's slagged off relentlessly cause he's ***** with the ball at his feet and managers want him to play out from the back and he can't do it competently, and that's what keepers are judged by most now.

Thinking about this. Let's assume that at any given level, say Premier league level, most keepers can do most things with a certain level of ability. In a normal game, a keeper will have to deal with fairly few attempts at a goal. Most of those will be routine to deal with. Some of those will be impossible to save and a small number might be in that grey zone where the best shot-stopping keepers will prevent a goal more frequently than the average ones. Work it all out and on average it is unlikely that being a really good shot-stopper will make a difference in more games than not. Again, that's comparing a good shot-stopper vs an average one.

If you think back to Dimi; he hardly made a "save" all season.

The bread and butter of every keeper's match is organising the defence, claiming crosses and through-balls and starting an attack or period of possession. Every match, a keeper will be called on to do this multiple times. A team with a keeper who is good at this vs one who is average at it will benefit from that advantage multiple times each match.

A good shot-stopper who is playing behind a poor defence (or is bad at organising their defence) will make showy saves every match and look like the bee's knees. An average shot-stopper playing behind a well-drilled defence will hardly be noticed.

Steffen is an outlier because not only is he good with his feet, he is comfortable playing outside the box as a pseudo-outfield player. With Steffen we almost have 11 outfield players vs 10 and that is a huge advantage.

It may be pragmatic, but prioritising organisation skills and ball-playing ability over shot-stopping is probably the way to get the maximum benefit from a keeper.
 
Steffen is an outlier because not only is he good with his feet, he is comfortable playing outside the box as a pseudo-outfield player. With Steffen we almost have 11 outfield players vs 10 and that is a huge advantage.
exactly this, so if the opposition engage and press with Steffen then once he plays it forward we have an overload and can drive forward, or they don't engage, go into a low block and our defence get the ball, with zero pressure and head up to look for passes forward.

One thing people forget when talking about 'traditional goalkeeping skills', is that they are harking back to a time prior to the backpass rule. Steffen is the natural progression of the backass rule to a GK with quick feet and the confidence to draw forwards to him before playing the right pass.
 
Basically look at Ederson.

Great with his feet.
Confident coming and collecting crosses.
Organises his defence to a man.
Great shot stopper.

Most importantly being in that Man City team who have the ball all the time it could be so easy to just relax, he's always ready, Teams no they'll get one or two chances against them, as if getting past the team wasn't hard enough you've then got that guy to get through.

We need a Championship version, one who matches those characteristics.

Our best recent keepers were Dimi and Randolph. Although it was a different era and playing with feet wasn't exactly a necessity, they'd pull off a stop or come collect a ball that would just spread confidence throughout the team, to know you have a very solid last line of defence can make make a team feel that bit more free
 
Depends on the tactics used by the team in question. To play Carrick's style effectively they have to be good with their feet. That's non negotiable I'd have thought.

The other stuff I'd say is more about how many errors a keeper makes. It's like being an opening batsman in test cricket. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how many flashy shots they have in their locker. The best batsmen are those who never make mistakes. Some of the best openers are often quite ordinary in terms of technical ability and range of strokes. Can't get them out though.

Same for keepers. Give me (or I suspect any manager) a keeper who never makes mistakes over one who makes worldie saves every now and then.

For a keeper, like opening batsmen, it's about concentration and judgement as much as it's about ability. Maybe even more so.
 
Ederson is great with the ball at his feet but IMO he's not a world class keeper when it comes to making saves. He has conceded 5 goals more than his xG this season, compared to Allison who has let in 10 goals fewer than his xG. That's why Allison is rightly Brazil's number 1.

Whilst it is important for modern day GKs to contribute to the passing game, you can't underestimate the importance of a top notch save. Everton probably wouldn't be playing PL football next season if it wasn't for Pickford's performances over the season, and Argentina certainly would not be World Champions without a truly stunning save from Martinez at the end of extra time - a save that is way beyond the powers of the mediocre De Gea by the way.
 
When we first started dating, my now wife told her parents that I was definitely a keeper but I had played up front all my life, very odd.
 
Basically look at Ederson.

Great with his feet.
Confident coming and collecting crosses.
Organises his defence to a man.
Great shot stopper.

Most importantly being in that Man City team who have the ball all the time it could be so easy to just relax, he's always ready, Teams no they'll get one or two chances against them, as if getting past the team wasn't hard enough you've then got that guy to get through.

We need a Championship version, one who matches those characteristics.

Our best recent keepers were Dimi and Randolph. Although it was a different era and playing with feet wasn't exactly a necessity, they'd pull off a stop or come collect a ball that would just spread confidence throughout the team, to know you have a very solid last line of defence can make make a team feel that bit more free
I think we had the ideally suited keeper last season, but ud be surprised to see him back next season sadly.

Ederson is a similar keeper in style to Steffen, you can see why City signed him.

Randolph had better reactions, but I think Steffen is taller and bigger and obviously far better with his feet, the biggest issue in Randolphs game.
 
Basically look at Ederson.

Great with his feet.
Confident coming and collecting crosses.
Organises his defence to a man.
Great shot stopper.

Most importantly being in that Man City team who have the ball all the time it could be so easy to just relax, he's always ready, Teams no they'll get one or two chances against them, as if getting past the team wasn't hard enough you've then got that guy to get through.

We need a Championship version, one who matches those characteristics.

Our best recent keepers were Dimi and Randolph. Although it was a different era and playing with feet wasn't exactly a necessity, they'd pull off a stop or come collect a ball that would just spread confidence throughout the team, to know you have a very solid last line of defence can make make a team feel that bit more free
Agree with Randolph's abilities certainly, though I'd add Given's name to the mix, even if he wasn't here that long. They were both absolutely ideal in our side at the time too as they were having to deal with plenty.

Steffen was a better fit than them for our side last season mind, once CW was gone, taking his impressive CV with him.

Dimi I'm less sure of his overall ability. On the whole he wasn't bad and certainly amazing value on "what" we acquired him for, in that regard one of the best value for money signings in recent years! He was pretty decent at organising his defence (as well as the Karanka system we played of course), thus ensuring that his physical abilities themselves were less called upon. Again a good fit for the side we had and the way we set up at the time.
 
Agree with Randolph certainly, though I'd add Given's name to the mix, even if he wasn't here that long.

Dimi I'm less sure of his overall ability. On the whole he wasn't bad and certainly amazing value on "what" we acquired him for, in that regard one of the best value for money signings in recent years! He was pretty decent at organising his defence (as well as the Karanka system we played of course), thus ensuring that his physical abilities themselves were less called upon
Dimi was a funny one wasn't he, kept plenty of clean sheets but wasn't without his issues.

He was great on crosses and a good organiser, but awfully slow across (and off) his line and was beaten too easily from distance.

According to the other board Karl Darlow had agreed to sign for next season, which is be happy with.
 
Depends on the tactics used by the team in question. To play Carrick's style effectively they have to be good with their feet. That's non negotiable I'd have thought.

The other stuff I'd say is more about how many errors a keeper makes. It's like being an opening batsman in test cricket. At the end of the day it doesn't matter how many flashy shots they have in their locker. The best batsmen are those who never make mistakes. Some of the best openers are often quite ordinary in terms of technical ability and range of strokes. Can't get them out though.

Same for keepers. Give me (or I suspect any manager) a keeper who never makes mistakes over one who makes worldie saves every now and then.

For a keeper, like opening batsmen, it's about concentration and judgement as much as it's about ability. Maybe even more so.
In the Bazball era it's the strike rate of the batters that matters, they seem to prefer a run a ball 40 to an all day trott style hundred.

Similarly I think Carrick isn't too bothered about a few mistakes, it's more important that the keeper is creating space for us to play.
 
I thought Steffen was beaten far too easily, too many times over the season. He reacts really slowly.
He got much better at dominating his area and claiming crosses.
He also got better at distribution through the season, cutting out the vast majority of the barmy mistakes. He was definitely a distributive asset that we will comparatively miss.

But I still wouldn't be spending much money on him or committing a big contract.
 
Dimi was underated he commanded his box extremely well, would come for crossss and had a calmness about him, as a shot stopper he wasnt the best but he did everything else extremely well.
 
Ederson is great with the ball at his feet but IMO he's not a world class keeper when it comes to making saves. He has conceded 5 goals more than his xG this season, compared to Allison who has let in 10 goals fewer than his xG. That's why Allison is rightly Brazil's number 1.

Whilst it is important for modern day GKs to contribute to the passing game, you can't underestimate the importance of a top notch save. Everton probably wouldn't be playing PL football next season if it wasn't for Pickford's performances over the season, and Argentina certainly would not be World Champions without a truly stunning save from Martinez at the end of extra time - a save that is way beyond the powers of the mediocre De Gea by the way.
That's the other consideration: how good is the rest of the team? If you have a defence that leaks like a whatsapp group then a shot-stopping keeper might keep you in the odd game.

Pickford isn't a great example because he's massively better than the players in front of him. He's England's #1 for a reason.

A top-class shot-stopper who is weak in other areas may look like he saves you some points but maybe his weaknesses elsewhere led to goals being conceded that didn't look like they were his fault.

If you think of us as a team that is aiming to win the majority of its game and dominate possession, shot-stopping is actually fairly low down the list of strengths you need in a keeper.
 
I thought Steffen was beaten far too easily, too many times over the season. He reacts really slowly.
He got much better at dominating his area and claiming crosses.
He also got better at distribution through the season, cutting out the vast majority of the barmy mistakes. He was definitely a distributive asset that we will comparatively miss.

But I still wouldn't be spending much money on him or committing a big contract.
Spot on for me

Spending the money rumoured on steffen would be an awful investment
 
In the Bazball era it's the strike rate of the batters that matters, they seem to prefer a run a ball 40 to an all day trott style hundred.

Similarly I think Carrick isn't too bothered about a few mistakes, it's more important that the keeper is creating space for us to play.
I almost caveated my comparison by saying apart from the England test side. Knew someone would mention it! 😀

Could well be the future of test cricket of course.
 
Pickford isn't a great example because he's massively better than the players in front of him. He's England's #1 for a reason.
I think it demonstrates that different qualities are needed dependant on how succesful the team is.

Keepers in relegated, or relegation threatened sides often have 'great' seasons, but then that's because they face far more shots than keepers in top teams.

Dimi was protected by a ridiculously miserly Boro defence for example.

Under Carrick we were a bit if a dichotomy, a succesful team that conceded too many goals.
 
Basically look at Ederson.

Great with his feet.
Confident coming and collecting crosses.
Organises his defence to a man.
Great shot stopper.

Most importantly being in that Man City team who have the ball all the time it could be so easy to just relax, he's always ready, Teams no they'll get one or two chances against them, as if getting past the team wasn't hard enough you've then got that guy to get through.

We need a Championship version, one who matches those characteristics.

Our best recent keepers were Dimi and Randolph. Although it was a different era and playing with feet wasn't exactly a necessity, they'd pull off a stop or come collect a ball that would just spread confidence throughout the team, to know you have a very solid last line of defence can make make a team feel that bit more free
Ortega’s not a bad keeper either.
 
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