The Reckoning - BBC Drama on Savile

atypical_boro said:
I don't doubt at all that people suspected it, or joked about it because of his creepy vibe, but you can't really make a formal complaint or prosecute someone based on a 'vibe'. I'm not sure it was all covered up anyway, I just don't think enough people complained when he was still alive. Understandable that they didn't, given how he manipulated them, and yet another example of what a dangerous bloke he was.
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Yes agree with that. I don’t believe in a huge cover up since the 60’s. Saville was a manipulative b****d. He also deliberately did many apparent good things to embed himself within institutions knowing it would make any complaints against him much less likely.

How could some young kid or vulnerable person complain against someone like him. They would never have dared.
 
Nero said:
Yes agree with that. I don’t believe in a huge cover up since the 60’s. Saville was a manipulative b****d. He also deliberately did many apparent good things to embed himself within institutions knowing it would make any complaints against him much less likely.

How could some young kid or vulnerable person complain against someone like him. They would never have dared.
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So it was just a coincidence that the most prolific paedophile in English history held a weekly "Friday morning club" with the top brass of Yorkshire police for TWENTY years. There was a massive fooking cover up.
 
The Card Cheat said:
So it was just a coincidence that the most prolific paedophile in English history held a weekly "Friday morning club" with the top brass of Yorkshire police for TWENTY years. There was a massive fooking cover up.
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Do you think they knew what he was doing though? I'm not saying socialising with him doesn't look poor on Yorkshire police in hindsight, but do you think he was sitting there discussing all the abuse he'd committed so that they could help him get away with it?
 
The Card Cheat said:
So it was just a coincidence that the most prolific paedophile in English history held a weekly "Friday morning club" with the top brass of Yorkshire police for TWENTY years. There was a massive fooking cover up.
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No idea. I wasn’t aware of that. Is it a fact?
 
atypical_boro said:
Do you think they knew what he was doing though? I'm not saying socialising with him doesn't look poor on Yorkshire police in hindsight, but do you think he was sitting there discussing all the abuse he'd committed so that they could help him get away with it?
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It meant when allegations were made they weren't taken seriously because it was their great pal Jim. It's fairly obvious what he was doing.

As Saville himself says in the transcript of one of his police interviews "some of the daft ones (allegations) I send to my pals in the police." Says it all.
 
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The Card Cheat said:
It meant when allegations were made they weren't taken seriously because it was their great pal Jim. It's fairly obvious what he was doing.
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Yes, but is that a cover up, or is that just him being an extremely skilled manipulator? Obviously he himself was covering up, but its only a police cover up if they knew he was breaking the law?
 
atypical_boro said:
Yes, but is that a cover up, or is that just him being an extremely skilled manipulator? Obviously he himself was covering up, but its only a police cover up if they knew he was breaking the law?
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It's them being fully aware of many, many allegations and choosing to ignore them whilst maintaining a close friendship with the person accused. I'd call that to all extents and purposes a cover up.
Same with the BBC, they were aware of a myriad of rumours but chose to brush them under the carpet. John Lyndon exposed him in 1978 in a BBC interview, but they censored him without a seconds hesitation.
 
The Card Cheat said:
It's them being fully aware of many, many allegations and choosing to ignore them whilst maintaining a close friendship with the person accused. I'd call that to all extents and purposes a cover up.
Same with the BBC, they were aware of a myriad of rumours but chose to brush them under the carpet. John Lyndon exposed him in 1978 in a BBC interview, but they censored him without a seconds hesitation.
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As I said above though, lots of people painted him as a creepy weirdo, and you can't always follow through on accusations with nothing more than that. Its not like HR was as developed a profession as it is now. Nor was it AS frowned upon to do 'stuff' with underage girls back then (I would struggle to list all the rock stars who've been 'accused' of committing similar crimes without any repurcussions, a lot of it is even written down in print). Why didn't Lyndon go to the police?

Its easy to look back in hindsight and say 'oh it was all so obvious and everyone was in on it protecting him' but that is exactly the problem, it wasn't and they probably weren't for the most part. Other than folk who were into the same stuff.
 
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Sadowitz's 1987 Edinburgh Fringe show Total Abuse was filmed at the Assembly Rooms and also released in audio as the album Gobshite. The album was quickly withdrawn from sale due to fears of being sued for libel by Jimmy Savile as Sadowitz references rumours of the TV personality being a paedophile.
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the audio was available until fairly recently on youtube.. called him out quite clearly and mentioned involvement of several other powers..
 
newyddion said:
Sadowitz's 1987 Edinburgh Fringe show Total Abuse was filmed at the Assembly Rooms and also released in audio as the album Gobshite. The album was quickly withdrawn from sale due to fears of being sued for libel by Jimmy Savile as Sadowitz references rumours of the TV personality being a paedophile.
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the audio was available until fairly recently on youtube.. called him out quite clearly and mentioned involvement of several other powers..
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But stand up comedy isn't really evidence for the police is it? This is the problem. Lots of people were making jokes about it or throw away comments, based on hearsay, but no one was actually reporting him to the police with hard evidence. This is how he got away with it all. They were comments that they couldn't be sure weren't libellous, hence why they never helped form a case for formal charges. Once they were brought against Rolf Harris, Stuart Hall and whoever else, justice was done.
 
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atypical_boro said:
But stand up comedy isn't really evidence for the police is it? This is the problem. Lots of people were making jokes about it or throw away comments, based on hearsay, but no one was actually reporting him to the police with hard evidence. This is how he got away with it all.
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That's just plain wrong. Many victims went to the Police with harrowing accounts of abuse whilst he was alive, but were ignored.
Do you reckon that's evidence?
 
The Card Cheat said:
That's just plain wrong. Many victims went to the Police with harrowing accounts of abuse whilst he was alive, but were ignored.
Do you reckon that's evidence?
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The examples above are not evidence. I haven't finished The Reckoning yet, but yes if there were formal complaints made and ignored by the police without investigation surely mistakes have been made there.

But what I'm saying is that Jonny Rotten going on telly and making a reference to it, or Baddiel and Skinner joking about it, they're not really examples of evidence and hence why he was able to get away with it. Its not as simple as people make out and it wasn't necessarily part of some huge cover up that loads of people were fully in on.
 
atypical_boro said:
The examples above are not evidence. I haven't finished The Reckoning yet, but yes if there were formal complaints made and ignored by the police without investigation surely mistakes have been made there.

But what I'm saying is that Jonny Rotten going on telly and making a reference to it, or Baddiel and Skinner joking about it, they're not really examples of evidence and hence why he was able to get away with it. Its not as simple as people make out.
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I'm not saying comedians or musicians talking about it were evidence.
I'm saying that the idea that nothing could have been done is utter horse****. It's a matter of public record that allegations were made by the victims to the police on many occasions and not acted upon, the Police themselves admitted to a "litany of errors" in their investigations. Largely because of their very chummy relationship with him.
See also his best mates Thatcher and the current King.
 
The Card Cheat said:
I'm not saying comedians or musicians talking about it were evidence.
I'm saying that the idea that nothing could have been done is utter horse****. It's a matter of public record that allegations were made by the victims to the police on many occasions and not acted upon, the Police themselves admitted to a "litany of errors" in their investigations. Largely because of their very chummy relationship with him.
See also his best mates Thatcher and the current King.
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I didn't say nothing could be done, just that he was a master of manipulation, and that I don't think the whole thing was knowingly covered up by a load of people who knew he'd broken the law. That's all.

I'm no psychologist, but I think he lived in such an alternative reality that he'd created for himself, that I don't even know if he himself thought he was doing anything wrong. Such seems to be the case with lots of repeat sex offenders.
 
I think somethimng that the general discussion misses is that the police do not need a complaint to investigate. Investigations happen all the time without complainants. I don't suppose too many drug addicts complain about the wider drug distribution network. The police investigate regardless, and spend millions of pounds on these investigation.

It is part of a police forces remit to detect and prevent crime. They didn't investigate Saville because there was no appetite for it.
 
atypical_boro said:
Yes, but is that a cover up, or is that just him being an extremely skilled manipulator? Obviously he himself was covering up, but its only a police cover up if they knew he was breaking the law?
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No it’s a cover up to not investigate any allegation of this severity based on well nothing at all is a cover up
 
Jedi boro said:
No it’s a cover up to not investigate any allegation of this severity based on well nothing at all is a cover up
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Laughing may well be correct that there was probably no appetite to investigate. Lots of folk from that era have got away with having sex with underage girls for the same reason.
 
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