Britain not interested in Youth Deal

The main problem with freedom of movement is that it encourages employers to hire foreign workers that will do the job for minimum wage instead of increasing wages for people locally. We don't have a shortage of workers, we have a shortage of people that don't want to be shafted. Freedom of movement with the EU meant there were people from countries where wages were much lower than ours willing to come here and work minimum wage (and spending half their wage on accommodation, aka shared shipping container). I don't think anyone is against the idea of a reciprocal agreement with other EU countries so our young people can go there and their young people can come here temporarily but it only makes sense if the two countries are economically similar otherwise it just ends up as a one-way system. The proposed system with specific countries would most likely be accepted but an EU wide one is just a return to FoM.
 
Nano said:
The main problem with freedom of movement is that it encourages employers to hire foreign workers that will do the job for minimum wage instead of increasing wages for people locally. We don't have a shortage of workers, we have a shortage of people that don't want to be shafted. Freedom of movement with the EU meant there were people from countries where wages were much lower than ours willing to come here and work minimum wage (and spending half their wage on accommodation, aka shared shipping container). I don't think anyone is against the idea of a reciprocal agreement with other EU countries so our young people can go there and their young people can come here temporarily but it only makes sense if the two countries are economically similar otherwise it just ends up as a one-way system. The proposed system with specific countries would most likely be accepted but an EU wide one is just a return to FoM.
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Freedom of movement also gave a lot of young people work and life experiences that they couldn't achieve in their own country. My son benefitted from a short term placement in France through Middlesbrough College. The experience he gained later helped him find employment.

Edit: Maybe I am also hoping we could all return to FoM.
 
Norman_Conquest said:
Freedom of movement also gave a lot of young people work and life experiences that they couldn't achieve in their own country. My son benefitted from a short term placement in France through Middlesbrough College. The experience he gained later helped him find employment.
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I do agree that it would be better if we could have those things but the number of people in situations like that are massively outweighed by the people coming in the opposite direction. You can't have a reciprocal agreement with such uneven outcomes otherwise it isn't really reciprocal. How many young people do you think want to go and do a short-term work placement for really low pay in places like Romania or Bulgaria compared to the amount that would do the return? UK and France, Spain, Germany, Italy and other economies that have similar minimum wage laws etc is probably fairly even and a reciprocal agreement would work without massively altering the economics of either country but opening it up to all of the EU means we're not getting an even deal. All the people in those countries can already travel and work in the other EU countries so they wouldn't be losing out if we were to have a deal with just a select group of countries.
 
Freedom of movement - of EU nationals - is an excellent & worthy idea, its the ability to just rock up & stay that is the issue - IMHO. I see nothing wrong with allowing u30's, indeed any EU national, to move freely & for most to be able to work & live ( even if for agreed times ) within European ( not just EU ) countries.

The issue really was fermented when Angela Merkel said - "Wir schaffen das" - it's just not sustainable without prior infrastructure planning & investment. Hopefully - proper integration will happen not just ghettoization & building up of isolated communities.

The sooner we can realise we're all just one humanity on one planet & lose nationhood to sporting events only - a centralised democratic EU where one rule of law, government, education & finance is in place the better.. Churchill had the right idea after WWII - unfortunately we missed that chance ( when all counties were level'ish )
 
Nano said:
The main problem with freedom of movement is that it encourages employers to hire foreign workers that will do the job for minimum wage instead of increasing wages for people locally. We don't have a shortage of workers, we have a shortage of people that don't want to be shafted. Freedom of movement with the EU meant there were people from countries where wages were much lower than ours willing to come here and work minimum wage (and spending half their wage on accommodation, aka shared shipping container). I don't think anyone is against the idea of a reciprocal agreement with other EU countries so our young people can go there and their young people can come here temporarily but it only makes sense if the two countries are economically similar otherwise it just ends up as a one-way system. The proposed system with specific countries would most likely be accepted but an EU wide one is just a return to FoM.
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And yet there are plenty of countries in the EU that have higher wages than the UK AND freedom of movement. The real issue is too many low skilled jobs - if most of your labour market can be replaced or undercut by cheap foreign workers you need to be training and upskilling people, not cutting off the supply to artificially inflate wages. Better jobs bring more prosperity, not a smaller labour pool.
 
Ironops said:
And yet there are plenty of countries in the EU that have higher wages than the UK AND freedom of movement. The real issue is too many low skilled jobs - if most of your labour market can be replaced or undercut by cheap foreign workers you need to be training and upskilling people, not cutting off the supply to artificially inflate wages. Better jobs bring more prosperity, not a smaller labour pool.
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There's a big difference between the minimum wage and the average or higher wages. FoM didn't really impact higher wages, it impacts the wages at the bottom.

Look at the disparity in minimum wage between the countries in the EU and you can see why it isn't an even playing field. Why would anyone work minimum wage in Bulgaria for €399 per month when they can do the same job in another country for 6x that. Then you realise that with this young person agreement that nobody from the UK would be willing to do the opposite and go to Bulgaria for €399 per month.

Statutory minimum wages, 2023 | European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions

www.eurofound.europa.eu www.eurofound.europa.eu
 
Nano said:
There's a big difference between the minimum wage and the average or higher wages. FoM didn't really impact higher wages, it impacts the wages at the bottom.

Look at the disparity in minimum wage between the countries in the EU and you can see why it isn't an even playing field. Why would anyone work minimum wage in Bulgaria for €399 per month when they can do the same job in another country for 6x that. Then you realise that with this young person agreement that nobody from the UK would be willing to do the opposite and go to Bulgaria for €399 per month.

Statutory minimum wages, 2023 | European Foundation for the Improvement of Living and Working Conditions

www.eurofound.europa.eu www.eurofound.europa.eu
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It’s not about minimum wages its about average wages - France and Germany both have higher average wages than the UK, both also have freedom of movement with other EU countries, the reason they have higher average wages is they invest more in skills to add more value to the economy - we dont, we have poor skills investment, lax labour laws in comparison, and a gig economy for large sections of society. Brexit has shrunk our economy by about 4% and if FOM was such a terrible thing why are wages still so poor for most people?

As I said before, if half your workforce is replaceable by cheap foreign labour then it’s your economy that’s the problem, your lack of skills, ending FOM hasn’t changed that
 
Nano said:
The main problem with freedom of movement is that it encourages employers to hire foreign workers that will do the job for minimum wage instead of increasing wages for people locally. We don't have a shortage of workers, we have a shortage of people that don't want to be shafted. Freedom of movement with the EU meant there were people from countries where wages were much lower than ours willing to come here and work minimum wage (and spending half their wage on accommodation, aka shared shipping container). I don't think anyone is against the idea of a reciprocal agreement with other EU countries so our young people can go there and their young people can come here temporarily but it only makes sense if the two countries are economically similar otherwise it just ends up as a one-way system. The proposed system with specific countries would most likely be accepted but an EU wide one is just a return to FoM.
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Yes, but we now have a system where we get cheap foreign labour from India and sub-Saharan Africa with no reciprocal rights for UK citizens.

We have numerous industries that rely on such labour. Unfortunately for us, these aren't industries we can just have fail e.g. the care sector.

So we've magnificently snookered ourselves. We're out of the single market but stuck in an economic doom loop where too many industries are addicted to cheap labour. Making economic growth and better paying jobs harder to create.

Proper investment and industrial strategy while within the SM would have resolved this, not leaving and hoping for the best.
 
LaPennaBianca said:
Yes, but we now have a system where we get cheap foreign labour from India and sub-Saharan Africa with no reciprocal rights for UK citizens.

We have numerous industries that rely on such labour. Unfortunately for us, these aren't industries we can just have fail e.g. the care sector.

So we've magnificently snookered ourselves. We're out of the single market but stuck in an economic doom loop where too many industries are addicted to cheap labour. Making economic growth and better paying jobs harder to create.

Proper investment and industrial strategy while within the SM would have resolved this, not leaving and hoping for the best.
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We're in a transitional period, and one which isn't helped by the clowns in charge. We've been under paying people throughout all levels of the economy but we've also been getting away with it because we've had a constant supply of cheap labour to keep prices down. We should have bigger salaries and higher prices as they do in other countries like Germany and the USA. We shouldn't have to import so many doctors and nurses from India and the Philippines but because of long term underfunding in training and the NHS in general we have no choice. Bending the rules to be able to import people cheaply to do it is just going to cause more of the same problem. The actual solution is to make those roles worth it and improve training opportunities but governments prefer short term solutions.

We shouldn't ever have to import people to do unskilled work. We have enough people that can do them but not all unskilled jobs are equal. Why would anyone choose to do things that are harder, dirtier, unsocial, in poor locations, seasonal etc when they can do something local and easy for the same wage? They wouldn't and the solution should be to raise wages so at least there is a reason someone would choose those jobs, not to bring in people from abroad that are willing to do it for the minimum. That reduces the need for employers to compete for labour and competition for labour is what causes higher wages. The low pay at the the bottom end of the scale contributes significantly to the low wages at the top (compared to peer nations).
 
Nano said:
We're in a transitional period, and one which isn't helped by the clowns in charge. We've been under paying people throughout all levels of the economy but we've also been getting away with it because we've had a constant supply of cheap labour to keep prices down. We should have bigger salaries and higher prices as they do in other countries like Germany and the USA. We shouldn't have to import so many doctors and nurses from India and the Philippines but because of long term underfunding in training and the NHS in general we have no choice. Bending the rules to be able to import people cheaply to do it is just going to cause more of the same problem. The actual solution is to make those roles worth it and improve training opportunities but governments prefer short term solutions.

We shouldn't ever have to import people to do unskilled work. We have enough people that can do them but not all unskilled jobs are equal. Why would anyone choose to do things that are harder, dirtier, unsocial, in poor locations, seasonal etc when they can do something local and easy for the same wage? They wouldn't and the solution should be to raise wages so at least there is a reason someone would choose those jobs, not to bring in people from abroad that are willing to do it for the minimum. That reduces the need for employers to compete for labour and competition for labour is what causes higher wages. The low pay at the the bottom end of the scale contributes significantly to the low wages at the top (compared to peer nations).
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Yeah this all makes sense - but it still doesn't make the vote to leave the single market make any sense.

If Germany can organise an industrial strategy at the centre of the eurozone, can afford to deal with sluggish growth in the 2000s and now, so could we in order to transition to a high wage economy.

We've lost rights and not even achieved the thing we wanted from it. "Transitional periods" don't make any sense if they don't go anywhere.
 
Nano said:
We're in a transitional period, and one which isn't helped by the clowns in charge.
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Any idea how long you expect this "transitional period" to last? Ten years? Twenty? Longer?

If the benefit was better wages for low paid jobs why haven't we see this happen? We've seen supermarkets having to up their wages to retain staff but little elsewhere?

Sorry, I do not believe that isolationism helps anyone. Trade makes us rich how we distribute/share the wealth is the problem not the use of foreign labour. The long discredited idea of "trickle down" is a lie to let the greedy swell their bank accounts.
 
Muttley said:
Any idea how long you expect this "transitional period" to last? Ten years? Twenty? Longer?

If the benefit was better wages for low paid jobs why haven't we see this happen? We've seen supermarkets having to up their wages to retain staff but little elsewhere?

Sorry, I do not believe that isolationism helps anyone. Trade makes us rich how we distribute/share the wealth is the problem not the use of foreign labour. The long discredited idea of "trickle down" is a lie to let the greedy swell their bank accounts.
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It should be the opposite of trickle down. It's how the labour market should work but it's artificially kept low by increasing the labour supply. This only benefits the people at the very top. The businesses that can pay peanuts instead of good wages. We have seen it happen in certain industries like HGV drivers and in the building trades (if you've seen the quotes for any domestic building work). We haven't seen it in other sectors because we've not reduced immigration, even though we can, instead we've actually increased it.

I don't know how long it will last. It needs competent people in charge that want to improve things for the lowest paid. Old school labour were opposed to joining the EU in the first place because it is damaging for salaries at the bottom end. That party doesn't exist anymore so we might be waiting a while.

It's not isolationism, or it doesn't have to be. We still have free trade, we still have immigration (and emigration) but it is controlled. Immigration is fine in moderation, and increases at the same speed as infrastructure increases, but it should be used to fill in gaps where we have shortages of skills but skills that are niche/rare and not skills that are essential like doctors and nurses. We should be training and retaining our own and the fact we aren't is a major failure of government.
 
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