Another actual brexit benefit

Ex pfc wintergreen said:
Well it's an opinion but it's not fact.😆
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No.

However, what I can state as fact is that the evaluation process by which every single Leave voter arrived at their decision was flawed and poor by the usual standards reasonable people would apply to important decisions in their personal lives. Since I regard most Leave voters as generally reasonable people, they failed by their own standards.

Do you dispute that?
 
Lefty said:
the evaluation process by which every single Leave voter arrived at their decision was flawed and poor
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That's a rather broad statement to make, since you can't possibly know every Leave voter.

For me Brexit is a success simply by being reality. The cost, within reason, is academic. What price the freedom to choose those who represent the people and who make the laws? For now the EU is a benign technocracy, but imagine if the far-right ended up with the most Commissions how quickly that could change. As to the actual financial cost of Brexit, it's far too early to tell - and the pandemic has had a ten times greater impact on the economy than Brexit. You'll find empty shelves and inflation in countries around the globe. And even the worst critic can't blame Brexit for half the country being confined to their homes for 18 months.

My guess is Brexit will be a Pyrrhic victory that will only last a few years; assuming Johnson can keep up the illusion he's a Conservative for that long. But that's another topic.
 
br14 said:
That's a rather broad statement to make, since you can't possibly know every Leave voter.

For me Brexit is a success simply by being reality. The cost, within reason, is academic. What price the freedom to choose those who represent the people and who make the laws? For now the EU is a benign technocracy, but imagine if the far-right ended up with the most Commissions how quickly that could change. As to the actual financial cost of Brexit, it's far too early to tell - and the pandemic has had a ten times greater impact on the economy than Brexit. You'll find empty shelves and inflation in countries around the globe. And even the worst critic can't blame Brexit for half the country being confined to their homes for 18 months.

My guess is Brexit will be a Pyrrhic victory that will only last a few years; assuming Johnson can keep up the illusion he's a Conservative for that long. But that's another topic.
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No, COVID damaged the economy by 2% by locking the country up for 18 months, but Brexit has damaged it by 4%.

That is how much of a clusterfuck it was/is.

And your comments about 10 times the damage show you know nothing about the economic impact. I won’t quote my source so when you ask me to I can come back with the Government Watchdog’s figures (used in my post already if you can’t keep up) and render your contribution worthless.
 
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br14 said:
That's a rather broad statement to make, since you can't possibly know every Leave voter.

For me Brexit is a success simply by being reality. The cost, within reason, is academic. What price the freedom to choose those who represent the people and who make the laws? For now the EU is a benign technocracy, but imagine if the far-right ended up with the most Commissions how quickly that could change. As to the actual financial cost of Brexit, it's far too early to tell - and the pandemic has had a ten times greater impact on the economy than Brexit. You'll find empty shelves and inflation in countries around the globe. And even the worst critic can't blame Brexit for half the country being confined to their homes for 18 months.

My guess is Brexit will be a Pyrrhic victory that will only last a few years; assuming Johnson can keep up the illusion he's a Conservative for that long. But that's another topic.
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Yes, it seems like a bold statement, but I’m comfortable with it. It’s been 5 years of me trying, I’ve yet to have a Leave voter do anything more than dip their toe in the water of their own reasoning process on Brexit put to scrutiny. They either don’t engage to begin with, since deep down they probably know they did a pretty poor job filtering out bias, analysing and testing the information that was out there, or else they duck out quickly when they realise where they are going and the embarrassing stupidity it will reveal.
 
Ex pfc wintergreen said:
They may not think they have, and who says they made a mistake.
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First part of the sentence: yes that’s possible not thinking is a clear Brexit vote indicator.
Second part of the sentence: you have to be utterly ignorant not to be able to see it is. Unless you can prove otherwise?
 
Lefty said:
Yes, it seems like a bold statement, but I’m comfortable with it. It’s been 5 years of me trying, I’ve yet to have a Leave voter do anything more than dip their toe in the water of their own reasoning process on Brexit put to scrutiny. They either don’t engage to begin with, since deep down they probably know they did a pretty poor job filtering out bias, analysing and testing the information that was out there, or else they duck out quickly when they realise where they are going and the embarrassing stupidity it will reveal.
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You could say much the same about any vote Lefty. Most people have a political team rather than cast a vote based on manifesto.

Many voted remain as the devil they knew, without understanding the ramifications.

Asking people to vote on a trade union was the problem rather than how people cast their vote.

People are free to vote how they choose without others attacking them for it.

And finally, most people realise it has been implemented badly and probably don't feel the need to apologise and nor should they. This idea that a cast vote needs to be explained is just nonsense.

Some may believe they are owed an explanation, they aren't.
 
Lefty said:
No.

However, what I can state as fact is that the evaluation process by which every single Leave voter arrived at their decision was flawed and poor by the usual standards reasonable people would apply to important decisions in their personal lives. Since I regard most Leave voters as generally reasonable people, they failed by their own standards.

Do you dispute that?
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No I can't agree that you know how everyone evaluated, it was a choice,stay or go, people's reasons for choosing which way they voted are myriad. What I do know is it's done .
 
SmallTown said:
First part of the sentence: yes that’s possible not thinking is a clear Brexit vote indicator.
Second part of the sentence: you have to be utterly ignorant not to be able to see it is. Unless you can prove otherwise?
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I don't have to prove anything because I'm not complaining about brexit I'm just getting on with it.
 
Ex pfc wintergreen said:
I don't have to prove anything because I'm not complaining about brexit I'm just getting on with it.
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ignorance is bliss huh!

There you have it. brexit is a failure. no one can deny it anymore. If you think brexit is "done" then you really don't understand the situation. which is fine. However once you realise this, maybe it would be wise to not comment until you worked out what was happening in this country.
 
Laughing said:
People are free to vote how they choose without others attacking them for it.

And finally, most people realise it has been implemented badly and probably don't feel the need to apologise and nor should they. This idea that a cast vote needs to be explained is just nonsense.

Some may believe they are owed an explanation, they aren't.
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ST gets attacked for voting Tory, but he was clearly man enough to admit that, now man enough to admit that was a mistake, and now goes even further by campaigning against them, fair play. Whilst he might annoy some leavers and is passionate about Brexit, his points are still quite valid and get limited counterarguments. People attack his vote, or his persistence, rather than his points, which is what people do when they don't have a legitimate argument.

Most of the people attacking ST are the Brexit voters, other Tory voters and Tory enablers (those who didn't vote, or voted for a person with zero chance of beating the local Tory). These people either don't admit their mistake, don't realise it was a mistake, or are so well off where they won't be impacted regardless. That's all fine of course, and their choice, but most rational people, who are not rich are going to think the leavers choice was foolish or selfish, an opinion which they're entitled to.

People did have their reasons to vote Brexit, we all know what the root of it was, and we know the other reasons were contradictory, or a fallacy.

Lavers don't have to provide an explanation or a defence, but I think the poorest, who will suffer most, probably deserve one. If Brexiters won't provide the explanation, then anyone with any logic can, or at least point out the big problems as they emerge.
 
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SmallTown said:
ignorance is bliss huh!

There you have it. brexit is a failure. no one can deny it anymore. If you think brexit is "done" then you really don't understand the situation. which is fine. However once you realise this, maybe it would be wise to not comment until you worked out what was happening in this country.
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Don't need to work out anything, I did workout that Boris was a straw man who wasn't a leader so I didn't vote Tory,not even for tax benefits.
 
Ex pfc wintergreen said:
Don't need to work out anything, I did workout that Boris was a straw man who wasn't a leader so I didn't vote Tory,not even for tax benefits.
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You don't need to, no.

But you do a lot of commenting on brexit threads despite the fact the, by your own admission, you're totally ignorant to the effect it's having on the country. If you don't want to look deliberately argumentative it would behove you to either learn a bit about the effect brexit is having on the country, or steer clear from threads where you deliberately don't understand the topic.
 
Andy_W said:
ST gets attacked for voting Tory, but he was clearly man enough to admit that, now man enough to admit that was a mistake, and now goes even further by campaigning against them, fair play. Whilst he might annoy some leavers and is passionate about Brexit, his points are still quite valid and get limited counterarguments. People attack his vote, or his persistence, rather than his points, which is what people do when they don't have a legitimate argument.

Most of the people attacking ST are the Brexit voters, other Tory voters and Tory enablers (those who didn't vote, or voted for a person with zero chance of beating the local Tory). These people either don't admit their mistake, don't realise it was a mistake, or are so well of where they won't be impacted regardless. That's all fine of course, and their choice, but most rational people, who are not rich are going to think the leavers choice was foolish or selfish, an opinion which they're entitled to.

People did have their reasons to vote Brexit, we all know what the root of it was, and we know the other reasons were contradictory, or a fallacy.

Lavers don't have to provide an explanation or a defence, but I think the poorest, who will suffer most, probably deserve one. If Brexiters won't provide the explanation, then anyone with any logic can, or at least point out the big problems as they emerge.
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I don't agree with a lot of this Andy. Firstly he blames non brexit economic World, and localised policies on brexit. He has done this multiple times.

He is disingenuous in his posting.

He talks down to everyone, often without saying anything at all.

He is extremely insulting in the language he uses.

He doesn't debate he lambasts.

Regardless of my stance on brexit I find him extremely offensive and dishonest.
 
SmallTown said:
You don't need to, no.

But you do a lot of commenting on brexit threads despite the fact the, by your own admission, you're totally ignorant to the effect it's having on the country. If you don't want to look deliberately argumentative it would behove you to either learn a bit about the effect brexit is having on the country, or steer clear from threads where you deliberately don't understand the topic.
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I comment on what suits me, You're only argument about brexit is an economic one, all about money with you isn't it mister IR35 .£££'s
 
Ex pfc wintergreen said:
I comment on what suits me, You're only argument about brexit is an economic one, all about money with you isn't it mister IR35 .£££'s
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It's not actually, economics wasn't the reason I voted remain. which shows how ignorant you are! What is your argument for then?
 
Laughing said:
I don't agree with a lot of this Andy. Firstly he blames non brexit economic World, and localised policies on brexit. He has done this multiple times.

He is disingenuous in his posting.

He talks down to everyone, often without saying anything at all.

He is extremely insulting in the language he uses.

He doesn't debate he lambasts.

Regardless of my stance on brexit I find him extremely offensive and dishonest.
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You don't have to, that's fine, that's your opinion, which I disagree with.

Leavers, like the Tories, try and blame the pandemic for everything, and attribute nothing to Brexit, the running of it, or the bad pandemic management, it's ludicrous.

You could use every one of your character references, for those who argue against him, why don't you argue against those? :unsure:
At least ST provides some actual reasoning and knowledge along with it.

I'm not sure what your stance is, you claim to be on one side, but don't defend it, you defend the ones on the supposed "other" side. I find this a bit odd, considering the wide opinion of Brexit is failing, as it is becoming more of a reality to more people.

I've never met one remainer yet who has gone more towards the leave side since the vote, or who chooses to defend Brexit more than remain, in fact, thinking about it, I think you're the only poster I see doing this on here too.
 
SmallTown said:
It's not actually, economics wasn't the reason I voted remain. which shows how ignorant you are! What is your argument for then?
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I was offered a choice,stay or go,I choose we go,the EU was set up as a economic free trade that came out of the iron,steel and coal economic agreement postwar which itself was set up to promote better relationships between countries and avoid future wars. The politicians were trying to make it the United States of Europe. It was never meant to be that. Incidentally I'm not ignorant of the effects of brexit,I'm just not affected by them like most people aren't day to day..Most people on here have to bring up data to back their argument, Or complain the local supermarket doesn't have a choice of asparagus.
 
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