ITV confirmation Number Ten partied whilst the rest of us locked down.

JonnyHistory said:
No it won't.
If we hadn't locked down the hospitals would have been overwhelmed, then covid and non covid emergencies alike are left to die at home.

Lockdown will have preventable deaths attached to it, but the alternative was far far far worse, every medical expert and scientist almost to a person agrees on that point.

There is a grain of truth to what you day bit to say there would be just as much death with no Lock down is wrong, it would have been a lot worse and a lot more preventable deaths would have occurred. To deny that is to deny logic and facts.
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Whilst I broadly agree, it's not a fact, its scientific opinion. Sweden has done much better in excess deaths than its neighbours who did lock down.
 
Laughing said:
Whilst I broadly agree, it's not a fact, its scientific opinion. Sweden has done much better in excess deaths than its neighbours who did lock down.
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There are more factors at play in those figures than just lockdown and Sweden have imposed other measures when their let it rip policy was clearly failing a few months in to the pandemic.

It is scientific fact that the more interactions you have the greater the chance of spreading infection, it's not opinion it's a very well established fact. Other factors do come into play, such as lifestyle and population density to name two. In this country with it's dense urban areas lockdown was the most sensible and impactful way to stop transmitions, it saved lives, a lot of lives.

I agree there are issues that come of it, and contributed to some preventable deaths, and that is awful. The alternative though, no hospital beds, no ambulance to come and get you in your moment of need. It could have been so much worse.
 
JonnyHistory said:
There are more factors at play in those figures than just lockdown and Sweden have imposed other measures when their let it rip policy was clearly failing a few months in to the pandemic.

It is scientific fact that the more interactions you have the greater the chance of spreading infection, it's not opinion it's a very well established fact. Other factors do come into play, such as lifestyle and population density to name two. In this country with it's dense urban areas lockdown was the most sensible and impactful way to stop transmitions, it saved lives, a lot of lives.

I agree there are issues that come of it, and contributed to some preventable deaths, and that is awful. The alternative though, no hospital beds, no ambulance to come and get you in your moment of need. It could have been so much worse.
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Other factors do come in to play, which is why I compared Sweden to their neighbours with similar lifestyles and populations. Whilst sweden did have restrictions they never locked down and their overall excess deaths were less than their neighbours and orders of magnitude less than the UK.

Lockdowns were not the only tool available to us, were used too late and in isolation.
 
It's a complete myth that the Swedish people didn't put into practice the same safeguarding measures as other countries. They practiced social distancing, they wore masks and they worked from home. The only difference between them and other countries is their government didn't feel given the cultural and behavioral norms in Sweden that legislation on these things was necessary, because they believed the Swedish population would by and large be sensible enough to do these things by choice and they were right.
Unfortunately if we did that here most people would do nowt.
 
Laughing said:
Other factors do come in to play, which is why I compared Sweden to their neighbours with similar lifestyles and populations. Whilst sweden did have restrictions they never locked down and their overall excess deaths were less than their neighbours and orders of magnitude less than the UK.

Lockdowns were not the only tool available to us, were used too late and in isolation.
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Sweden, Norway and Denmark have as many differences as similarities. Things like 'house church' in Norway, the community meeting in someones home and discussing their faith. Denmark is more urban than the other two and is not really comparable, it is not quite Britain but it has a higher population density than Norway and Sweden. What I am saying is these comparisons are useless and prove nothing, each country needs to act in the best way for its unique demographics, culture and societal behaviours.

I agree we acted too late and lockdown was the only option left at that point. I do not think that is up for debate either, the incompetence of this government is there for all to see. We left airports open, we didn't put anything meaningful in place until it was to late. Even then it was only the inevitable overwhelming of the NHS that was looming forced them to act.
The truth is we did get to that point and lockdown ended up saving many lives, was it something that was inevitable? that's one that will be debated, I would argue it was no matter what measures we took. Even New Zealand with its strict measures has had lockdowns. One thing is certain though, Boris and co have blood on their hands.
 
JonnyHistory said:
Sweden, Norway and Denmark have as many differences as similarities. Things like 'house church' in Norway, the community meeting in someones home and discussing their faith. Denmark is more urban than the other two and is not really comparable, it is not quite Britain but it has a higher population density than Norway and Sweden. What I am saying is these comparisons are useless and prove nothing, each country needs to act in the best way for its unique demographics, culture and societal behaviours.

I agree we acted too late and lockdown was the only option left at that point. I do not think that is up for debate either, the incompetence of this government is there for all to see. We left airports open, we didn't put anything meaningful in place until it was to late. Even then it was only the inevitable overwhelming of the NHS that was looming forced them to act.
The truth is we did get to that point and lockdown ended up saving many lives, was it something that was inevitable? that's one that will be debated, I would argue it was no matter what measures we took. Even New Zealand with its strict measures has had lockdowns. One thing is certain though, Boris and co have blood on their hands.
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Your last paragraph is my point exactly. I agree we had to lock down because we didn't do anything else. Upto and after the first lockdown there still wasn't a mask mandate, social distancing or enforced hand sanitization.

Would we have had to lockdown if these measures had been brought in and enforced? I don't know. It is likely that a short sharp lockdown may have been required from time to time, a 2 week covid break, so to speak. But, as I say, I don't know, and we have no way of knowing, other than looking at otherr nations who went down that path, comparable or not.

My initial point was that lockdown was necessary, isn't a fact. Lockdown became necessary, that is a fact, of course.
 
Laughing said:
Your last paragraph is my point exactly. I agree we had to lock down because we didn't do anything else. Upto and after the first lockdown there still wasn't a mask mandate, social distancing or enforced hand sanitization.

Would we have had to lockdown if these measures had been brought in and enforced? I don't know. It is likely that a short sharp lockdown may have been required from time to time, a 2 week covid break, so to speak. But, as I say, I don't know, and we have no way of knowing, other than looking at otherr nations who went down that path, comparable or not.

My initial point was that lockdown was necessary, isn't a fact. Lockdown became necessary, that is a fact, of course.
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I think this is a matter of semantics, the reality is we got to that point and it did save lives anything else is speculation but we broadly agree that things would likely have been better with less death and consequence to the country if we had acted sooner.

Comparing Sweden to UK or Norway for that matter though does nothing for your argument, it really is comparing apples with oranges.

I think the one thing we can 100% be in unison with is who's fault this is and hopefully vote this party out of power next time around.
 
JonnyHistory said:
I think this is a matter of semantics, the reality is we got to that point and it did save lives anything else is speculation but we broadly agree that things would likely have been better with less death and consequence to the country if we had acted sooner.

Comparing Sweden to UK or Norway for that matter though does nothing for your argument, it really is comparing apples with oranges.

I think the one thing we can 100% be in unison with is who's fault this is and hopefully vote this party out of power next time around.
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I do believe the tories are done, not just Johnson, but the party who let this go on so long.

I was watching Jo Politics yesterday out in teh streets of (wherever the by election is next week-cant quite remember Bishop somewhere?) Anyhow they were asking voters who they were going to vote for and many said "not tory" but the interesting thing was the ones who said they would stick with the tories didn't have an answer why. One woman, she seemed articulate , when asked what this government had got right, answered "Hmm nothing eally, but who would have done better?" When then asked what would anotherr party have to do to get her vote said "There is nothing they can do to get my vote"

The stunning stupidity of some people, sticking with a party that gets so much wrong and pickpockets us at the same time.
 
Laughing said:
the interesting thing was the ones who said they would stick with the tories didn't have an answer why.
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This is where the likes of Johnson, Cummings and the Tory party have worked miracles. They've hijacked politics and the Brexit vote to brainwash millions of people. Politics have always been tribal but now its absolute blind loyalty to one side regardless of any evidence.

Listening to some of the Brexit voters all that mattered was getting it done and anyone that isn't right wing is portrayed as an unpatriotic traitor.

Edit- I've literally just turned the radio on now and they are debating this again, there's a woman caller blaming labour for the Xmas party at Downing Street 😂 what sort of mental gymnastics do you need to do to reach that conclusion.
 
Uwefuchs said:
I've literally just turned the radio on now and they are debating this again, there's a woman caller blaming labour for the Xmas party at Downing Street 😂 what sort of mental gymnastics do you need to do to reach that conclusion.
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The sort of mental gymnastics that see you disappear up your own **** I'd imagine.
People moan when you use the word 'cult' to describe that sort of loyalty, but what other way is there to adequately capture the absolute devotion to a party in the face of the facts?
 
dooderooni said:
The sort of mental gymnastics that see you disappear up your own **** I'd imagine.
People moan when you use the word 'cult' to describe that sort of loyalty, but what other way is there to adequately capture the absolute devotion to a party in the face of the facts?
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You do get that about Labou on this board too. In the xmas election thread a few said they could only ever vote for labour. I would rather we all voted tactically at the next election. I will probably vote lib dem, whom I think are awful, but they are the only party in my constituency that could even remotely overturn the tories.
 
Uwefuchs said:
Edit- I've literally just turned the radio on now and they are debating this again, there's a woman caller blaming labour for the Xmas party at Downing Street 😂 what sort of mental gymnastics do you need to do to reach that conclusion.
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Was in the pub earlier and a bloke was saying that we’re only finding out about all this now because of smart phones and that it’s been going on for years we just didn’t know.
 
Chris_Boro said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1469790405449424903
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Christ. Sounds like Cummings was right the other day when he mentioned more will come out about parties, etc ... reading the responses on Twitter to this Mirror report, surely BJ will not survive this??

Has to resign now, surely. Unless he chooses the Trump approach and just carries on in the face of constant damning evidence of his wrongdoing, no matter how bad it gets.

If he still refuses to f*ck off, then the Tory party will be polling below the Greens by the end of next week.
 
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