Keir Starmer - FoM now a red-line

gregorgregorovich said:
If, through history people had just lived in the world as it is, we wouldn't have universal male suffrage or even universal suffrage. We wouldn't have trade unions, we wouldn't even have the Labour Party. Working people have only ever improved their lot, through protest and direct action. Everything we have left and which hasn't yet been taken away from us, is down to resistance and organised action against the status quo at the time. I've said this before, but from the day I was born, there has been a class war fought in this country and I know which side has been winning it for most of my life.
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I said you have to live in the world as it is with regard to getting a Labour government elected, not just accept everything and keep voting Tory or voting in a way that ensures the Tories keep getting back in on 40% of the vote.

The two things are completely different.

The propaganda machine is mostly foreign, stinking rich and biased towards the Tories in this country. You will notice that as we approach the next election.
 
Chris_Boro said:
This wasn't the order of things.

Before that a coalition was proposed to avoid the need for a General Election, this potential coalition however had the demand that a strong remain candidate be installed as the leader of said coalition and would become temporary PM until Brexit was negotiated.

Jeremy Corbyn refused this which lead to the above, forcing Labour into an election they we never going to win.
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Jeremy Corbyn did not refuse a coalition, it was his idea. He wished to oust the government with a vote of no confidence in order to prevent a no deal Brexit and he contacted other parties to that end. It was Jo Swinson who refused to work with him and it was she who approached Ken Clarke and Harriet Harman to take temporary lead. The woman was still deluding herself that she was running for PM at the forthcoming election.
 
Laughing said:
Well his policies were all over the place and he couldn't control the party. Not strong enough in either department.
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So you don’t really know if he would make a good pm or not then, you just feel he was mint strong enough and his policies where all over

In 2017 the policies were fairly clear to me. Put it this if he had have been pm, I can’t imagine the people of Middlesbrough would be worse off today
 
Tbf he wouldn't have lasted a day as PM. If he'd surprised everyone and won a majority at either election, there'd have been dozens of Labour MPs happy to join a no confidence vote.
 
ForssAwakens said:
So you don’t really know if he would make a good pm or not then, you just feel he was mint strong enough and his policies where all over

In 2017 the policies were fairly clear to me. Put it this if he had have been pm, I can’t imagine the people of Middlesbrough would be worse off today
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He wasn't strong enough to contain the infighting in his own party, that's a fact. He wasn't strong enough to apologise for anti semitism in the party, also a fact. It doesn't matter how much or how deep that went. He was weak as a leader. He probably had a lot of moral courage, he put up with a lot in his time as leader. Moral courage is good it doesn't make you a leader.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Jeremy Corbyn did not refuse a coalition, it was his idea. He wished to oust the government with a vote of no confidence in order to prevent a no deal Brexit and he contacted other parties to that end. It was Jo Swinson who refused to work with him and it was she who approached Ken Clarke and Harriet Harman to take temporary lead. The woman was still deluding herself that she was running for PM at the forthcoming election.
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What I do remember of Swinson is that she had an extraordinarily inflated opinion of her abilities and unrealistic forecasts as to how well the Lib Dems would fare at the 2019 GE.

I wonder what she's up to now?
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Jeremy Corbyn did not refuse a coalition, it was his idea. He wished to oust the government with a vote of no confidence in order to prevent a no deal Brexit and he contacted other parties to that end. It was Jo Swinson who refused to work with him and it was she who approached Ken Clarke and Harriet Harman to take temporary lead. The woman was still deluding herself that she was running for PM at the forthcoming election.
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I didn't say he refused a coalition, I said he refused the demands of the coalition. Yes, Swinson was deluded and finding a unity candidate would've been hard, but it was a possibility.

The original point was all this happened before the SNP and Lib Dems forced Labour into a corner on voting for an Election.
 
Chris_Boro said:
I didn't say he refused a coalition, I said he refused the demands of the coalition. Yes, Swinson was deluded and finding a unity candidate would've been hard, but it was a possibility.

The original point was all this happened before the SNP and Lib Dems forced Labour into a corner on voting for an Election.
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"...this potential coalition however had the demand that a strong remain candidate be installed as the leader of said coalition and would become temporary PM until Brexit was negotiated."

The coalition was Corbyn's proposal, he contacted leaders of the Scottish National party, Plaid Cymru, the Green party and Tory rebels, "outlining his plan to oust the government through a vote of no confidence and form a “strictly time-limited”, caretaker government to prevent a no-deal Brexit."

As the leader of the main opposition and proposer of the move, the task was his, but those who were against Corbyn couldn't let that happen, regardless of how damaging it would be to the country.
 
Chris_Boro said:
the SNP and Lib Dems forced Labour into a corner on voting for an Election.
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Aha. Glad we're (all?) in agreement that this is what ultimately happened now. Not sure why it's important to clarify totally different things that happened before the election but yes fair enough. (y)
 
SuperStu said:
Sure but we all have a different view on what "the world as it is" actually means. To me TWAII is that incrementalism doesn't work, that the country's been moving to the right for 40 years & this is the cause of a lot of our problems, and that we'll never even start to move left unless there are politician's and political parties willing to advocate to do so.
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‘The country‘s been moving to the right for 40 years’.

I’m afraid I completely disagree with that statement and I know plenty of Tories who complain that despite Tory governments over the years they have been fighting a losing battle with the big Johnson Brexit majority being a single issue blip.
 
HolgateCorner said:
‘The country‘s been moving to the right for 40 years’.

I’m afraid I completely disagree with that statement and I know plenty of Tories who complain that despite Tory governments over the years they have been fighting a losing battle with the big Johnson Brexit majority being a single issue blip.
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I think the country has moved to the right a bit (or it's awoken the hornets at least), largely because of the Brexit vote, but I don't think people are being born into it, they're growing into it. The country is getting older and is top-heavy with boomers, and old people vote more than young folk. A lot of people vote tory to protect their wealth, or at least they think going tory is doing that, whereas in reality it's not for most of them. It's interesting mind, as there are a lot of older folk on here, and it's quite anti-tory, but clearly that's not representative of other seats and the public.

Most people I know born 80's onwards (my age group, just) are very much anti-tory/ far right, largely as they were brought up in a lot more considerate/ tolerant/ diverse times, and it will be even more the case for 90's, 00's, 10's, 20's etc.

Almost every person of recent voting age now is going to be struggling to get on the ladder, wages are crap and they are unlikely to be wealthy, so can't see much appetite for them being future tories. Once the older folk start dying off it will probably swing back left quickly.

And no, before anyone has a go, I don't want the old or even old Tories to die, but I just wish the blue ones wouldn't vote so often :LOL:
 
Apparently, I'm a "Boomer". I seem to have missed out on the Tory tendency. Happily.

Of my peers I find it odd that anyone who was young in the Thatcher years can even countenance voting for them? Some of my friends, from caring professions (nurses, carers, etc.) voted leave and then blue and I cannot for the life of me understand why. Even their kids were arguing with them. I don't think they are selfish people, but they are taken in by the scare stories and lies in the media.
 
HolgateCorner said:
‘The country‘s been moving to the right for 40 years’.

I’m afraid I completely disagree with that statement and I know plenty of Tories who complain that despite Tory governments over the years they have been fighting a losing battle with the big Johnson Brexit majority being a single issue blip.
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Well I suppose that just backs up what I was saying about peoples view of "what is" being different. I don't see how you could possibly disagree that we've moved to the right. There's been a continuous movement of industries from nationalised to privatised and we're approaching the point where there's not a lot left to go.
 
SuperStu said:
Well I suppose that just backs up what I was saying about peoples view of "what is" being different. I don't see how you could possibly disagree that we've moved to the right. There's been a continuous movement of industries from nationalised to privatised and we're approaching the point where there's not a lot left to go.
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It's pretty clear that since Thatcher, the political trend in the UK has seen a consistent rightward drift. The Thatcher period a given, as are the years following the 2010 GE. Even during the Blair/Brown period we had things such as the PFI deals to finance schools, hospitals, and prisons etc. Deals which placed us at the mercy of global banks and private companies for the foreseeable future and costing us far more than it should have.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
It's pretty clear that since Thatcher, the political trend in the UK has seen a consistent rightward drift. The Thatcher period a given, as are the years following the 2010 GE. Even during the Blair/Brown period we had things such as the PFI deals to finance schools, hospitals, and prisons etc. Deals which placed us at the mercy of global banks and private companies for the foreseeable future and costing us far more than it should have.
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I think the key thing in your post is since thatcher. There is a reason for that, I don't know what it is though. Prior to tatcher we were moving to the left. I suspect there is a bot of tooing and frooing over the years. Nobody really wants extreme right or extreme left. Unfortunately we have been too far to the right during the current tory party
 
BoroFur said:
What I do remember of Swinson is that she had an extraordinarily inflated opinion of her abilities and unrealistic forecasts as to how well the Lib Dems would fare at the 2019 GE.

I wonder what she's up to now?
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She works for Partners for a New Economy.
 
Laughing said:
I think the key thing in your post is since thatcher. There is a reason for that, I don't know what it is though. Prior to tatcher we were moving to the left. I suspect there is a bot of tooing and frooing over the years. Nobody really wants extreme right or extreme left. Unfortunately we have been too far to the right during the current tory party
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I included Thatcher because she falls within SuperStu's 40 year claim. Thatcher was the most right wing of PM's in my lifetime, with her and Reagan championing their neoliberalism. The point being that since her rein we have, over the years moved further right.
 
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