Keir Starmer - FoM now a red-line

BoroFur said:
Look Corbyn's history, he's never coming back so you and those who are likeminded really need to get over it.
Starmer hasn't done anything because Labour isn't in power and hasn't been for 12 years. What part of that don't you understand?

It's pointless debating with you and others. Your mind's made up and it won't change unless you get your way. Are you a member? Who did you vote for in the leadership contest? What are you doing to change things other than sulking in the corner?

Are you saying that 60% of those who voted in Chester City yesterday are thick or something?

Leaders of the Opposition do not dictate Government policy, they have to be elected first.

The criticism of Starmer from some on here is ludicrous, someone the other day accused him of being an awful public speaker which is just juvenile.

The Labour Party doesn't belong to you, me or any individual. If you want to force change stop whining, get off your **** and do something positve.
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You can have a pop at me all you like mate. I’m not sulking. I’d much prefer Corbyn to Starmer but I’m far from averse to voting for KS. Corbyn has been nowhere near power or office for years. Tell me why Starmer is so good, honest, trustworthy. That’s all I’m interested in here.

What I’m saying is this - why would I or should I trust a man who has broken every promise he made during his leadership campaign? Who has promised to out-flank the right on right-wing policies? Who refuses to come out and support and/or fight for teachers, nurses, barristers, binmen and women, fire brigade staff, rail workers… why would I back this bloke? It doesn’t feel like he’s on my side. It doesn’t feel like he’s on any of our sides.

I’m not saying I won’t back him or vote for him by the way, I’m asking you to tell me why I should.

What was he saying last week? “Too many foreigners in the NHS… Too reliant on foreign people…”

YAWN. YAWN. YAWN. DOG WHISTLE. MURDOCH. F*CK OFF.

I’m my opinion, obvs.
 
BoroFur said:
You're welcome to it and your entitled to it.
Nothing or nobody will change your mind on Starmer (although last year you were singing a different tune) so there's no chance that I'm going to try.
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My tune - I think - has always been the we should try to unite and make sure that we get rid of the Tories. My point here is that Starmer and some of things he does, says, make it very difficult to support him.

I’ve always said/felt that there’s a large group of Labour members/people/voters who seem upset they’re not getting total unity now but seem unwilling to accept that that may be - in some small part - down to the fact there never afforded the last leader the same support or unity they now see as mandatory.

The main thing; get rid of these Tory c*nts. But my word, Starmer makes hard work of encouraging those on the left of politics to support him. Which makes some of us think it may actually be deliberate. In that, actually, he’s just another status quo bloke. So, as I said, yes, unite. But why *should* I vote for him? In your opinion. This is not an argument, or confrontational, by the way. Just interested to see how the land lies.
 
viv_andersons_nana said:
My tune - I think - has always been the we should try to unite and make sure that we get rid of the Tories. My point here is that Starmer and some of things he does, says, make it very difficult to support him.

I’ve always said/felt that there’s a large group of Labour members/people/voters who seem upset they’re not getting total unity now but seem unwilling to accept that that may be - in some small part - down to the fact there never afforded the last leader the same support or unity they now see as mandatory.

The main thing; get rid of these Tory c*nts. But my word, Starmer makes hard work of encouraging those on the left of politics to support him. Which makes some of us think it may actually be deliberate. In that, actually, he’s just another status quo bloke. So, as I said, yes, unite. But why *should* I vote for him? In your opinion. This is not an argument, or confrontational, by the way. Just interested to see how the land lies.
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I don't know how many times I've said on here I'm just Labour. I've supported every leader since 1983. Centre, Centre Left, Centre Right means nothing to me they're just 'labels'. Perhaps I'm not sufficiently intellectual or sophisticated enough to notice any discernible difference but I'll tell you that 90% of the electorate will be exactly the same as me. So giving Starmer an opportunity is an absolute no-brainer for me.
 
SuperStu said:
🤪 Urrrrr NoR yOu AcTuAlLy!

Good one geezer 👏👏👏 anything to say in response to the rest of my post?
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Try not to take the pi$$ mate.

If I'd responded to the rest of your post I'd just be repeating myself.
If you think that Starmer is the establishment's man (i.e. he belongs to them/it) then you can at least tell who/what is the establishment. To me, it's just a lazy soundbite.
 
BoroFur said:
Look Corbyn's history, he's never coming back so you and those who are likeminded really need to get over it.
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FWIW I don't think anybody is asking for Corbyn to come back as leader. I'm not. Haven't seen anyone else say it.

I don't even expect the party to be particularly left wing. Or to never have a centrist leader. But it's meant to be a democratic organisation. What's the point in a membership electing a leader if it becomes standard practice for candidates to lie about who and what they are? If they're praised for it?

Say what you like about Liz Kendall but she was honest about being a red tory in 2015 and duly took her ~5%.
 
BoroFur said:
If I'd responded to the rest of your post I'd just be repeating myself.
If you think that Starmer is the establishment's man (i.e. he belongs to them/it) then you can at least tell who/what is the establishment. To me, it's just a lazy soundbite.
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You have repeated yourself. 🤷‍♂️ And in doing so you haven't at all responded to what I said.
 
bumface said:
Compare and contrast to the way they treated Corbyn. If Corbyn was kicking left wing jews out of the party you'd have never heard the end of it. Starmer does it and they don't ever bother mentioning it. Has Starmer been accused of dancing at The Cenotaph yet, or of being a Czech spy, or having a sinister obsession with marrows? I have no idea how you can back a bloke who doesn't believe in anything and has being lying to you for years. That's up to you though, obviously. I won't hold it against you.
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Your point had nothing to do with Corbyn so why would be compare them?

You said Starmer is ‘their man’ and that is why he’s got an easy ride in the press. That is not true. Starmer was attacked in the Mail for something like 14 days in a row, all front pages, about a party that wasn’t a party. It was so bad the Police buckled and opened an investigation.

If you want to compare to Corbyn please direct me to where the press has hounded him to the extent that the a police opened an investigation on him.
 
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MolteniArcore said:
Your point had nothing to do with Corbyn so why would be compare them?

You said Starmer is ‘their man’ and that is why he’s got an easy ride in the press. That is not true. Starmer was attacked in the Mail for something like 14 days in a row, all front pages, about a party that wasn’t a party. It was so bad the Police buckled and reopened the investigation.

If you want to compare to Corbyn please direct me to where the press has hounded him to the extent that the a police opened an investigation on him.
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And Corbyn was attacked from all angles for his entire time as leader. It's a valid comparison. Even The Guardian had it in for him, right from the start. Starmer has had a very easy ride. Nothing to say about the broken pledges and all of the rest of the lies then? And the disgusting treatment of Corbyn and RLB? And the refusal to the back the unions or to even pretend to be an opposition? You've backed a fence post mate. He's an @rsehole.
 
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SuperStu said:
Oh please. You're not serious with this are you Molteni? You think Starmer gets a harder time than Corbyn used to? Really? They whipped up such a frenzy that it caused terrorist attacks targetting him.
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I never said that. I was disputing that Starmer has it easy because he’s ‘their man’.
 
bumface said:
And Corbyn was attacked from all angles for his entire time as leader. It's a valid comparison. Even The Guardian had it in for him, right from the start. Starmer had had a very easy ride. Nothing to say about the broken pledges and all of the rest of the lies then? And the disgusting treatment of Corbyn and RLB? And the refusal to the back the unions or tp even pretend to be an opposition? You've backed a fence post mate. He's an @rsehole.
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And I didn’t agree with how Corbyn was treated but that has nothing to do with the point you made about Starmer. And when presented with evidence to the contrary you’ve turned to whataboutery.
 
MolteniArcore said:
And I didn’t agree with how Corbyn was treated but that has nothing to do with the point you made about Starmer. And when presented with evidence to the contrary you’ve turned to whataboutery.
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What evidence? Have a read of this mate.

declassifieduk.org

Exclusive: Jeremy Corbyn on the establishment campaign to stop him becoming PM

The former Labour Party leader sits down with Declassified for his most candid interview yet – on the British media, UK military and intelligence services, Israel, Keir Starmer, Julian Assange and Saudi Arabia.
declassifieduk.org declassifieduk.org

You're trying to compare that to a few articles about a party? Seriously?
 
MolteniArcore said:
I never said that. I was disputing that Starmer has it easy because he’s ‘their man’.
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Okay if you genuinely want examples of Starmer getting an easy ride then I'd say there's been very little press (and probably far less than there would have been for multiple previous Labour leaders) about the following topics:

- Labour's finances. Their last accounts had them £5m in the hole. They had to lay off staff last year and then ended up rehiring some. The party of Labour engaging in 'fire and rehire' cause they're so bad with money.
- As already mentioned on the thread - Starmers team have kicked a lot of members out of the party. There was hysterical shrieking headlines for years about "Stalinist purges" under the last leader, so you'd think if people were consistent they'd have something to say about what's happening now.
- The time Starmer hit a cyclist with his car and then left the scene before the police arrived. Someone will come on in a minute and say oh well he went to the police station later the same day or something but that's not the point. It's something that could be spun very negatively and for whatever reason the press decided not to bother.
- There are rumours around Westminster that Starmer's had an affair, and that he drinks quite a bit. I'm not saying these should be front page news or anything but it's the sort of thing for other leaders that journos would make little sly remarks about on twitter. It doesn't happen with Starmer.
 
bumface said:
What evidence? Have a read of this mate.

declassifieduk.org

Exclusive: Jeremy Corbyn on the establishment campaign to stop him becoming PM

The former Labour Party leader sits down with Declassified for his most candid interview yet – on the British media, UK military and intelligence services, Israel, Keir Starmer, Julian Assange and Saudi Arabia.
declassifieduk.org declassifieduk.org

You're trying to compare that to a few articles about a party? Seriously?
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What are you on about? You are still trying to compare Corbyn’s treatment to Starmer‘s. This is what you said:

bumface said:
Of course Starmer is their man. Why do you think the press have given him such an easy ride?
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I gave you a solid example of the press not giving Starmer an easy ride then you start banging on about Corbyn!

If you had said “Starmer has had a much easier ride than Corbyn ever had because Kier is part of the establishment” that’s another discussion, but you didn’t. If that is what you meant you should have written it, I agree that Starmer has had it easier than Corbyn. But don’t start berating me about Corbyn and ignoring your post that I was replying to just because you didn’t either think about or write your post properly.

The daft thing is I agree that Corbyn had it harder, it’s the reasons why that we probably disagree on.
 
MolteniArcore said:
What are you on about? You are still trying to compare Corbyn’s treatment to Starmer‘s. This is what you said:



I gave you a solid example of the press not giving Starmer an easy ride then you start banging on about Corbyn!

If you had said “Starmer has had a much easier ride than Corbyn ever had because Kier is part of the establishment” that’s another discussion, but you didn’t. If that is what you meant you should have written it, I agree that Starmer has had it easier than Corbyn. But don’t start berating me about Corbyn and ignoring your post that I was replying to just because you didn’t either think about or write your post properly.

The daft thing is I agree that Corbyn had it harder, it’s the reasons why that we probably disagree on.
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My point was that Starmer would have had the same treatment if the establishment didn't see him as 'their man'. Starmer is more of the same. Slightly less evil than the current Tory lot but still not a bloke who will rock the boat. A bloke who will change pretty much nothing if he gets elected. The press are fine with that. Corbyn offered real change. That's why he had to be destroyed with lies and smears.
 
SuperStu said:
Okay if you genuinely want examples of Starmer getting an easy ride then I'd say there's been very little press (and probably far less than there would have been for multiple previous Labour leaders) about the following topics:

- Labour's finances. Their last accounts had them £5m in the hole. They had to lay off staff last year and then ended up rehiring some. The party of Labour engaging in 'fire and rehire' cause they're so bad with money.
- As already mentioned on the thread - Starmers team have kicked a lot of members out of the party. There was hysterical shrieking headlines for years about "Stalinist purges" under the last leader, so you'd think if people were consistent they'd have something to say about what's happening now.
- The time Starmer hit a cyclist with his car and then left the scene before the police arrived. Someone will come on in a minute and say oh well he went to the police station later the same day or something but that's not the point. It's something that could be spun very negatively and for whatever reason the press decided not to bother.
- There are rumours around Westminster that Starmer's had an affair, and that he drinks quite a bit. I'm not saying these should be front page news or anything but it's the sort of thing for other leaders that journos would make little sly remarks about on twitter. It doesn't happen with Starmer.
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Thanks for the sensible reply. I remember big deals being made about the first 3. I have no idea about the 4th though, that’s news to me!

I agree that if it had been JC bigger deals would have been made. That wasn’t a point I was arguing against.

Playing devils advocate here apart from the bike accident I’m not sure what the RWM would have gained attacking him for them. In fact the kicking out of left wing party members would be something the RW would want hushing up.

I think round about the time a Tory knocked someone off his bike too… Maybe that was why that story wasn’t hammered home?

Im not the best person to comment really about the stories though as I clearly remember them in the news. In fact being debated for a few days on Politics Live. But I sit at home watching politics and news all day so I’m bound to see it. For Joe Public who comes home after work and watches the 6 o clock news these stories maybe didn’t seem as big.
 
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