16th May 1943: at 21:39 hrs. the first Formation of 617 Squadron ["Dambusters"] took off from RAF Scampton in Lincolnshire......

[WoodallServices]

More importantly 800.000 workers were diverted from elsewhere to rebuild the dams.
Unfortunately the Sorpe was the more important dam but the second wave ran into trouble so in the end only two aircraft pressed home attacks.

 

[Soutra]

More importantly 800.000 workers were diverted from elsewhere to rebuild the dams.
Unfortunately the Sorpe was the more important dam but the second wave ran into trouble so in the end only two aircraft pressed home attacks.

I don't think it was 800k workers. I've read lots of estimates, most between 7k and 20k.

Some of them came from the Atlantic Wall so it assisted D Day. So then the question is - how important was D Day?

 

[HolgateCorner]

Went to see the Mohne Dam a couple of years back, its a holiday area these days and is well worth a visit.

There is no visible sign of where the dam was breached but there is an information board in English about the bouncing bomb raid which is very disparaging of the RAF and the British, which I was a bit surprised about considering the length of time since the war and the role of Germany in causing it.

 

[WoodallServices]

Went to see the Mohne Dam a couple of years back, its a holiday area these days and is well worth a visit.

There is no visible sign of where the dam was breached but there is an information board in English about the bouncing bomb raid which is very disparaging of the RAF and the British, which I was a bit surprised about considering the length of time since the war and the role of Germany in causing it.

“They sowed the wind”!!

 

[WoodallServices]

Without looking it up I think it was on the same day the Memphis Belle returned from her 25 mission Guy Gibson was on the dams raid on something like his 126th.

 

[r00fie1]

[QUOTE="r00fie1

Whilst the breaching of the iconic Ruhr dams raised the morale of the British public and helped persuade the United States that the war was going well, it was also a huge affront to German prestige and self-esteem.

The "Dambusters raid" was not just a spectacular propaganda exercise, It did real damage to the German ability to wage war, psychologically, materially, logistically and financially. Fifty three brave young Allied airmen paid the ultimate price but their heroic sacrifice very clearly shortened the war to quite a considerable extent.

Despite the dams' significant military value, there were some who questioned whether such attacks were justified, for that the attacks had killed over a thousand lives, many of whom innocent civilians without a direct connection to the German military.

Although the impact on industrial production was limited, the raid gave a significant morale boost to the people of Britain.[/SIZE]

The quote you attribute to me is from the World War II Database which you will find I have "sourced" in my original post.

 

[KiwiBoro]

I had the honor to be part of an initiative to try to buy the medals of one of the then last surviving Dambusters, Les Monroe - a proud Kiwi. He wanted to sell his medals to raise funds for the upkeep of the Bomber Command memorial and we were trying to the money so that a New Zealand museum could get them and they not fall into the hands of a private collector. In the end Lord Ashcroft stepped in and maid an equivalent donation to the memorial so that Les could donate his medals to the museum. Lovely gestures from all involved.

Sad passing of Les Monroe

 

[Lefty]

[QUOTE="r00fie1

Whilst the breaching of the iconic Ruhr dams raised the morale of the British public and helped persuade the United States that the war was going well, it was also a huge affront to German prestige and self-esteem.

The "Dambusters raid" was not just a spectacular propaganda exercise, It did real damage to the German ability to wage war, psychologically, materially, logistically and financially. Fifty three brave young Allied airmen paid the ultimate price but their heroic sacrifice very clearly shortened the war to quite a considerable extent.

Despite the dams' significant military value, there were some who questioned whether such attacks were justified, for that the attacks had killed over a thousand lives, many of whom innocent civilians without a direct connection to the German military.

Although the impact on industrial production was limited, the raid gave a significant morale boost to the people of Britain.[/SIZE]

Lots of different justifications - damage to German esteem, impaired German production, justifying US involvement to the American people, morale boost in Britain.

Perhaps the main propaganda value was that Churchill could tell the Soviets - who had just finally turned the tide of the war in the east at Stalingrad - that they weren't fighting alone, that the western allies were doing something.

Maybe it wasn't such a triumph in the sense that the Dambusters raid strengthened Arthur Harris' hand, leading to an increasingly unnecessary bombing campaign over Germany in 1944 and 1945.
[/QUOTE]

If there were two crucial battles/campaigns/strategies that defeated the nazi's it was, in order, The Battle for the Atlantic and the strategic bombing campaign of Germany. The bombing wasn't unnecessary, it was absolutely vital.

 

[bear66]

If there were two crucial battles/campaigns/strategies that defeated the nazi's it was, in order,

The Battle of Stalingrad
The Allied invasion in Normandy

 

[HolgateCorner]

If there were two crucial battles/campaigns/strategies that defeated the nazi's it was, in order,

The Battle of Stalingrad
The Allied invasion in Normandy

I’ve been reading a book about the Battle of Normandy and it’s been an eye opener for me, as a non military person, the differences in fighting styles and strategies between the Germans and the Allies.

I thought it was all just go in with the guns and the tanks previously but it was a lot different to that.

 

[bear66]

I’ve been reading a book about the Battle of Normandy and it’s been an eye opener for me, as a non military person, the differences in fighting styles and strategies between the Germans and the Allies.

I thought it was all just go in with the guns and the tanks previously but it was a lot different to that.

It certainly was. The allies cleverly bypassed the strongholds, won strategic ground (like Hill 112) and channelled the retreating Germans into the Odon valley. Suddenly they had lost their defensive line.

 

[Lefty]

If there were two crucial battles/campaigns/strategies that defeated the nazi's it was, in order,

The Battle of Stalingrad
The Allied invasion in Normandy

If the battle for the Atlantic had been lost, the Russians would have been under resourced and we would never have had D-Day.

If the bombing campaign hadn't been so intense, the Germans would have had far more resources.

A perfect example, that can be extrapolated to every other facet of the German war machine, is that the German military ordered 1500 King Tigers. Only 492 were delivered. The Allies on the ground didn't account for 2/3 of the King Tigers, the allied bombers.

Stalingrad, then Normandy were massively important, but they get the attention because they are kinda sexy. Winning the battle of the Atlantic was absolute key to not losing the war, the bombing campaign absolutely crucial to ending the war.

Wars are won on logistics way before any tactical genius can make a difference. We had two priorities, secure our manufacturing capability and supply lines and destroy our opponents.

 

[Lefty]

I’ve been reading a book about the Battle of Normandy and it’s been an eye opener for me, as a non military person, the differences in fighting styles and strategies between the Germans and the Allies.

I thought it was all just go in with the guns and the tanks previously but it was a lot different to that.

Which book?

Normandy '44 by James Holland?

 

[bear66]

If the battle for the Atlantic had been lost, the Russians would have been under resourced and we would never have had D-Day.

If the bombing campaign hadn't been so intense, the Germans would have had far more resources.

A perfect example, that can be extrapolated to every other facet of the German war machine, is that the German military ordered 1500 King Tigers. Only 492 were delivered. The Allies on the ground didn't account for 2/3 of the King Tigers, the allied bombers.

Stalingrad, then Normandy were massively important, but they get the attention because they are kinda sexy. Winning the battle of the Atlantic was absolute key to not losing the war, the bombing campaign absolutely crucial to ending the war.

Wars are won on logistics way before any tactical genius can make a difference. We had two priorities, secure our manufacturing capability and supply lines and destroy our opponents.

I agree the battle of the Atlantic was strategically important, but the bombing of Germany is disputed in terms of importance by many hustorians, as the claimed manufacturing capability that was being destroyed didn't exist. At best it was about propaganda / destroying morale.

 

[Lefty]

I agree the battle of the Atlantic was strategically important, but the bombing of Germany is disputed in terms of importance by many hustorians, as the claimed manufacturing capability that was being destroyed didn't exist. At best it was about propaganda / destroying morale.

Those historians are wrong.

 

[Lefty]

Those historians are wrong.

The psychological effect should not be understimated in any case. More and more evidence is coming to light about the primary impact bombs have, be it airborne, artillery or even just mortars.

Most historians are poor statisticians. Those who doing the boring stuff are clear, the bombing campaign didn't just destroy, it disrupted everything.

 

[bear66]

The psychological effect should not be understimated in any case. More and more evidence is coming to light about the primary impact bombs have, be it airborne, artillery or even just mortars.

Most historians are poor statisticians. Those who doing the boring stuff are clear, the bombing campaign didn't just destroy, it disrupted everything.

My father was more fearful of allied bombs than the Germans in the spring of 45.

 

[Lefty]

My father was more fearful of allied bombs than the Germans in the spring of 45.

Was he a pow in Dresden or Hamburg?

 

[bear66]

Was he a pow in Dresden or Hamburg?

Near Ham. They were forced to work in factories and railway sidings. They spent the day sabotaging rail lines by poor British working standards and the night painting crosses on whatever building they were housed in.

 

[Lefty]

Near Ham. They were forced to work in factories and railway sidings. They spent the day sabotaging rail lines by poor British working standards and the night painting crosses on whatever building they were housed in.

The railways were key to everything about the German war effort. Hence they were targeted.

They were also key to the concentration and extermination camps.