BBC2 - The Detectives: Taking down an OCG.

Jonny Ingbar said:
The driver behind any activity to tackle OCG's will be the risk presented by the perpetrators, which includes risks to vulnerable groups, including children.

That's why 'County Lines' supply (as seen in the documentary), where vulnerable people - usually children - are coerced and groomed in order to facilitate the supply, are such a priority.

The level of violence used by OCG's are another driver behind police activity.

So to put it another way, police drugs operations are not purely, singularly or often even primarily about the drugs.
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There's no doubt that more recently that the focus is a bit more rounded towards the exploitation crimes committed , because of the money involved for substances.
It's also, another charge to add on..( easier for remand if it's across the board crimes , as opposed to just supply ) .

I'm sure ' lessons have been learned ' , but the primary focus of the program was regards the supply of drugs.
That's the finance allocated to the scheme.

My opinion is this ... If they got no convictions for any of the OCG , BUT managed to get 20 vulnerable kids / people out of it .
The boss of the OCG task force isn't getting a pat on the back.
Because everyone ( working in the taskforce ) knows there's another 20 tomorrow or the day after to be exploited.

If they'd had 200 people in a church at 6am ready to go look after exploited and vulnerable adults and children, then fair do's ..
My opinion is the level of funding for such things was , Primarily, about the supply of drugs.
Which is a pointless ethos .
 
Rofesleg said:
It was like watching an episode of Line of Duty at one point.
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It certainly was .
The miracle kidnapped witness who happened to be there originally and splurged his soul, and was found in the car park.
A serving officer with no charges and no disciplinary actions,... despite. ...

Truth often stranger than fiction
 
outoftown said:
There's no doubt that more recently that the focus is a bit more rounded towards the exploitation crimes committed , because of the money involved for substances.
It's also, another charge to add on..( easier for remand if it's across the board crimes , as opposed to just supply ) .

I'm sure ' lessons have been learned ' , but the primary focus of the program was regards the supply of drugs.
That's the finance allocated to the scheme.

My opinion is this ... If they got no convictions for any of the OCG , BUT managed to get 20 vulnerable kids / people out of it .
The boss of the OCG task force isn't getting a pat on the back.
Because everyone ( working in the taskforce ) knows there's another 20 tomorrow or the day after to be exploited.

If they'd had 200 people in a church at 6am ready to go look after exploited and vulnerable adults and children, then fair do's ..
My opinion is the level of funding for such things was , Primarily, about the supply of drugs.
Which is a pointless ethos .
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I get your point of view but with the greatest respect you're a little wide of the mark.

All police activity into drug trafficking is driven by risk and harm and if vulnerable people are involved then that will be a priority in almost all cases, similarly violence. The harm caused by drug use itself is secondary to that in practice, in almost all cases.
 
Complete wronguns but seemed a bit small time. Even the 'Mister Big' was a bloke with a kebab house.
 
Heam44 said:
I said exploitation of vulnerable adults, children and violence. The point I’m making is when they target organised crime groups, it’s not just with the aim of getting drugs off the street, it’s also to protect / bring justice to all of the people who have suffered due to the OCG - vulnerable adults and children, people who’ve been stabbed, shot etc. Also to prevent more people from suffering the same fate also.

Of course, they are also targeting the drugs supply, if you can’t prove that the turd of a drug dealer has stabbed some one / exploited a vulnerable adult or child but you can prove he’s in supplying a $hit load of drugs and that puts him in prison for 10 years then that’s still a successful investigation. Ultimately they OCG members will be commiting many crimes, if the police can get them for all of them - great, if they can only get them for some of them - well it’s better than nothing.

Bout 2 years ago I was seconded onto an organised crime team for a couple months in relation to two gangs in dispute, both were already on the radar of the organised crime team but the reason they brought 4 more officers in wasn’t due to how much drugs they were supplying, it was due to the dispute which amongst other incidents, two incident occurred - one side turned up at the house of a rival with a shotgun, fella who’s house it was seen then coming so ran out his house with his own shotgun and fired at their car, narrowly missing an old woman walking her dog. Also another incident in which 4 lads in two cars rammed a rivals car then got out and attacked the two occupants with machetes / axes, one lad almost lost his leg (he was in the car with his cousin and was either not involved in the OCG or had a minimal involvement).

When police are conducting an investigation into and OCG of course they are investigation the drug supply, but trust me, the motivation to work the extra hours / days / get up at daft o’clock in the morning comes from protecting people (whether innocent people caught up in it all or vulnerable adults and children), remember the cops meet these people and see the impact it has had on them first hand. Also they are aware that if they stop one OCG from supplying drugs, another will take their place asap.

The turd with the shotgun went to prison for that. Nobody was convicted for the machete incident, but we got one of the main turds in a house with a significant amount of cannabis so he got a couple years for that but nothing in comparison to what he would have got for the machete incident.

When you say “Rochdale of all places proves this”, I think you may be referring to Rotherham. Not that it matters, same stuff will have / will be going on in Rochdale.


Again as I’ve said, I’m not saying your wrong regards to your point about the legalising of drugs etc making it a medical issue.
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outoftown said:
Appreciate you answering, and completely grasp that the extra motivation for the individual officers concerned is for the exploited and innocent victims of OCG behaviours.

I did mean Rochdale, not Rotherham btw, it has had well documented issues with all forms of child exploitation. (Some quite famous in the world of Child Protection white papers ) .

The real point I was making was that a different approach/ and way of thinking is required.
My first / 2nd post from a former ' lead on OCG taskforce' explained his experience.
And it sounds like yours tbf .

If you acknowledge that OCGs will be replaced within hours , and they are more violent / exploitative every time they are replaced.

Then the system is completely broken, the ' war on drugs ' attitude is not only futile financially.. but makes things worse for the vulnerable in society progressively.

Whilst only 3% of drugs entering are seized , then there will always serious money to be made, by people inclined to vile behaviour towards others.

Personally, would make substantially more sense to ' cut the head off the snake ' for drugs legally, and spend the billions on police/ social services etc tackling DV / child exploitation/ forced sex work etc etc.

Again, I appreciate it's hard to stop a moving train.
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Yeah I appreciate your point.

Out of curiosity, what would you suggest they do with the current OCGs?

Still investigate with a view to prosecuting them or leave them alone so as not to waste money / replace them with other OCGs?
 
outoftown said:
It certainly was .
The miracle kidnapped witness who happened to be there originally and splurged his soul, and was found in the car park.
A serving officer with no charges and no disciplinary actions,... despite. ...

Truth often stranger than fiction
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The ‘miracle witness’ scenario really isn’t out of the ordinary.

And finding the car would have been a fairly straightforward process.

However I was gobsmacked regards to the police officer keeping he job.
 
How come the officer kept their job? Did they not find any evidence that backed up the witnesses allegations or did they find evidence and just not sack her?
 
Heam44 said:
Yeah I appreciate your point.

Out of curiosity, what would you suggest they do with the current OCGs?

Still investigate with a view to prosecuting them or leave them alone so as not to waste money / replace them with other OCGs?
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I'd think little in the way of ' symptom management ' is going to work tbh.
But I'm not a strategist for policing policy.

Without tackling the principle of ' war on drugs ' from the top .. it feels a bit " weeing in the wind " .

If it's acknowledged that ever proceeding OCG makes things more violent and exploitative..

Then, Maybe, ( and it's a maybe ) leaving the top level OCG feeling bullet proof , and targeting completely bottom up .
Taking all the kids and exploited off the street/ with eyes and ears on them , actual real interventions and support structures, with real resources could be a better idea.
It needs all the above. and much more , not just individual ' intervention '

As I've been pretty clear on , I'm no expert on policing.
But I'm not half bad at addiction, cause and impact and the inadequacy of prohibition based substance laws in( and Tory government impact ) over 25 years.
 
outoftown said:
I'd think little in the way of ' symptom management ' is going to work tbh.
But I'm not a strategist for policing policy.

Without tackling the principle of ' war on drugs ' from the top .. it feels a bit " weeing in the wind " .

If it's acknowledged that ever proceeding OCG makes things more violent and exploitative..

Then, Maybe, ( and it's a maybe ) leaving the top level OCG feeling bullet proof , and targeting completely bottom up .
Taking all the kids and exploited off the street/ with eyes and ears on them , actual real interventions and support structures, with real resources could be a better idea.
It needs all the above. and much more , not just individual ' intervention '

As I've been pretty clear on , I'm no expert on policing.
But I'm not half bad at addiction, cause and impact and the inadequacy of prohibition based substance laws in( and Tory government impact ) over 25 years.
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So what would you suggest for let’s call them the ‘mid level OCGs’ the ones who have been exploiting vulnerable adults and children, inflicting violence (significant in both its volume and severity) on both ordinary and vulnerable member of the public?

Basically the people who spend their lives ruining the lives in others?
 
Heam44 said:
So what would you suggest for let’s call them the ‘mid level OCGs’ the ones who have been exploiting vulnerable adults and children, inflicting violence (significant in both its volume and severity) on both ordinary and vulnerable member of the public?

Basically the people who spend their lives ruining the lives in others?
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I answered an either or question, that was slightly loaded . And have a ' maybe ' solution, based upon the experiences I've heard from those involved in the CJ side.
Of course violent and exploitative scumbags need locking up.

I've suggested completely different strategy to our societies approach to substance use.

One more akin to alcohol legislation.
One that would free up billions for actual intervention to make lives better / give opportunities for those vulnerable.
One that would starve the cash supply of OCG, as they can't undercut big pharma and governments.
It could also maximize CJ resources into other areas of OCG activities.

If you have evidence / research that this current approach, prohibition and focus on drugs, is statistically working, to reduce the supply, the violence , money generated for criminals, acquisitive and other crime , and the impact and involvement of the vulnerable...for more than a few hours. I'd be all ears.
 
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The thing that gets me is the big boss, who is making all the money, gets a few years. The law needs to be changed to… “If you are found to be in charge of an Organised Crime Group then you will be locked up for life and all your assets will be seized”. (y)
 
sambaDTR said:
The thing that gets me is the big boss, who is making all the money, gets a few years. The law needs to be changed to… “If you are found to be in charge of an Organised Crime Group then you will be locked up for life and all your assets will be seized”. (y)
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The thing is. Mr Kebab Shop isn’t even the big boss. He is getting supplied by someone from Bradford. Whoever that is should also be targeted. Not by the local force but a National Agency.
 
outoftown said:
I answered an either or question, that was slightly loaded . And have a ' maybe ' solution, based upon the experiences I've heard from those involved in the CJ side.
Of course violent and exploitative scumbags need locking up.
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I wasn’t trying to be difficult, you were free to answer in any way you wanted. I was genuinely curious as to your thoughts.

outoftown said:
I've suggested completely different strategy to our societies approach to substance use.

One more akin to alcohol legislation.
One that would free up billions for actual intervention to make lives better / give opportunities for those vulnerable.
One that would starve the cash supply of OCG, as they can't undercut big pharma and governments.
It could also maximize CJ resources into other areas of OCG activities.

If you have evidence / research that this current approach, prohibition and focus on drugs, is statistically working, to reduce the supply, the violence , money generated for criminals, acquisitive and other crime , and the impact and involvement of the vulnerable...for more than a few hours. I'd be all ears.
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Of course I don’t have any evidence / research regards to the success / lack of success in relation to the current approach. That’s the job of other people.

The current approach definitely impact the vulnerable for more than a few hours though. Remember we are talking about individual people here. So of course I understands your point regards to ‘a few hours’ which may be correct when we are talking about vulnerable people as a collective, but if we are talking about individuals then the current approach has and continues to protect some vulnerable people for longer periods of time, maybe even their entire lives.

Maybe both approaches need to operate simultaneously, which would of course require a huge change in police / law by the government.
 
Casualwoolyback said:
The officer who was arrested but faced no charges, it could well be that they were undercover. The end of the series where it brought up the photo of the victim who ultimately took his own life was heartbeaking.
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I very much doubt she was undercover on the basis that it was common knowledge between them that she was a cop.
 
Nero said:
The thing is. Mr Kebab Shop isn’t even the big boss. He is getting supplied by someone from Bradford. Whoever that is should also be targeted. Not by the local force but a National Agency.
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He probably is. By either the NCA or regional organised crime unit, or more likely both.
 
Fat_Dragon said:
How come the officer kept their job? Did they not find any evidence that backed up the witnesses allegations or did they find evidence and just not sack her?
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Emmersons_BrazillianDong said:
We don't know but it stinks
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They did have all those books full of notes.
They must have struggled to prove she was using them to help the OCG. Or that she was in the house with them.
After all, she seemed to have perfected the 'No Comment' defence.

If she is in the pocket of 'H', it must be hard for her colleagues to trust her and work with her now she has been exposed. I'm surprised she wasn't extracted during the interview.
 
Unbelievable series.

As said above, I was enthralled by it, and then almost felt bad for being entertained watching it as you remember this is real life, and the victims are real people.

I was shocked throughout, and really impressed by the commitment of the close-knit OCG police unit, even when facing intel of threats against themselves and their own family.

Genuinely devastated by the young lads outcome. You could see he really tried to overcome it, and did all he could to assist in taking them down. His full life just turned upside in one random moment of evil. Heartbreaking :cry:
 
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