Dementia and football

[BoroMart]

In 2017 Alan Shearer took part in a documentary Alan Shearer: Football, Dementia and Me and again it is worth watching (linked below). There is one part where John Stiles, Nobby's son is talking to Shearer and he says that after the death of Jeff Astle in 2002 the coroner stated that heading a ball had contributed to his death and up to the programme being made the FA have done nothing about it and are just treating it as old age (first link).

Shearer does take part in a MRI scan to see what damage has been done to his brain through heading a ball. The MRI scan comes up clear with no damage to him (second link).

Obviously, there needs to be a lot more research carried out looking at dementia in footballers to see how the rates compare.

Alan Shearer: Dementia, Football & Me | "It's terrible to watch someone you love disappear." Alan Shearer: Dementia, Football & Me Watch now ➡️... | By BBC Sport ScotlandFacebook

"It's terrible to watch someone you love disappear." Alan Shearer: Dementia, Football & Me Watch now ➡️...

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https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10156224033390982

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMoDtIJ_b8I

Of course shearer played in an era where the balls were far lighter than those 60s players who have been diagnosed with dementia. I think we will naturally see the % reduce to some degree or other but it will always remain a dangerous aspect of the sport.

I can foresee a day where heading the ball is banned

 

[fmttmadmin]

Just wondering what people feel the FA could do to prevent it going forward?

I certainly feel that they could do more to support former footballers and address that there is an issue. Having read Hayley's article the other week about Gordon McQueen it seems they have received no assistance from the FA or PFA.

But in terms of the future of the game what could be done? Do you think footballers would just accept it as a occupational hazard and just get on with it? Would the likes of Jack Charlton and Jeff Astle have traded the life they had for one without dementia in their final years. I certainly don't think they would.

No they wouldn't trade the life they had on the pitch but as Hayley argues and Dr Gates they would certainly have liked significant changes in training, starting when young. Bill Gates got migraines from heading a ball hundreds of times a day in training. That is why the FA started to impose changes and limits for heading in training. That day in day out contact between head and ball can be considerably reduced to enhance the later life standards of players.

 

[anth25]

No they wouldn't trade the life they had on the pitch but as Hayley argues and Dr Gates they would certainly have liked significant changes in training, starting when young. Bill Gates got migraines from heading a ball hundreds of times a day in training. That is why the FA started to impose changes and limits for heading in training. That day in day out contact between head and ball can be considerably reduced to enhance the later life standards of players.

The thing is footballers need to learn to head a ball properly so that the technique is right. There is no way heading can be removed from the game so it needs to be taught right. The way I see some kids try and head the ball is terrible. But I guess it's about coming up with training techniques and equipment that don't have the impact that a proper football has.

 

[h_m_boro]

The thing is footballers need to learn to head a ball properly so that the technique is right. There is no way heading can be removed from the game so it needs to be taught right. The way I see some kids try and head the ball is terrible. But I guess it's about coming up with training techniques and equipment that don't have the impact that a proper football has.

The technique of heading a ball "generally" could be done with a penny flyer, but agree to replicate match situations for attackers and defenders you need to replicate match conditions ie with a proper football. Probably come a time when this aspect is limited to being able to head x balls per week in training.

Long term, the art of heading the ball will start to recede. Good/bad thing, dunno.

 

[Norman_Conquest]

The technique of heading a ball "generally" could be done with a penny flyer, but agree to replicate match situations for attackers and defenders you need to replicate match conditions ie with a proper football. Probably come a time when this aspect is limited to being able to head x balls per week in training.

Long term, the art of heading the ball will start to recede. Good/bad thing, dunno.

As Terry Cochrane always use to say to us 'if god wanted you to head the ball he would have given you wings.'

 

[masquesmog]

Recent Swedish study

The Karolinska is one of the top neuro research insitutes in the world.

I can't locate it now, but there is also a study about the modern, lighter ball and possible head injury. If I remember correctly there was still a significant problem with main factors being age (so current recommendations to cut it down with youngsters), frequency of heading and the lighter ball (compared to the past) has a higher velocity. If I come across it again, I will post it.

As someone has said above, the US have been concerned about this longer, so this has been in regular use from kids upwards for the last 10 to 15 years.

Impact concussion

 

[BoroMart]

Recent Swedish study

The Karolinska is one of the top neuro research insitutes in the world.

I can't locate it now, but there is also a study about the modern, lighter ball and possible head injury. If I remember correctly there was still a significant problem with main factors being age (so current recommendations to cut it down with youngsters), frequency of heading and the lighter ball (compared to the past) has a higher velocity. If I come across it again, I will post it.

As someone has said above, the US have been concerned about this longer, so this has been in regular use from kids upwards for the last 10 to 15 years.

Impact concussion

We’re not allowed to do heading in training with kids these days, so that will protect the young undeveloped brain, on top of that far more teams play football on the ground so there is less in game heading, then we have lighter balls and of course players will be subbed if they got a ball in the head at youth level whereas they were told to get up and crack on like a man when I was a kid. All that should help reduce what we have sadly seen with the older generation

 

[Nano]

Of course shearer played in an era where the balls were far lighter than those 60s players who have been diagnosed with dementia. I think we will naturally see the % reduce to some degree or other but it will always remain a dangerous aspect of the sport.

I can foresee a day where heading the ball is banned

If it's anything like the issue in the NFL then the weight of the ball possibly doesn't have a huge impact because the major issue is caused by the brain hitting the inside of the skull and not the external impact.

 

[masquesmog]

If it's anything like the issue in the NFL then the weight of the ball possibly doesn't have a huge impact because the major issue is caused by the brain hitting the inside of the skull and not the external impact.

heading and brain circulation

Guardian article

I still can't find the article I read, but the basic model was that repeated heading produces what you said - the brain hitting the skull. It was likened to a clanger in a bell.

 

[wilkos_perm]

The technique of heading a ball "generally" could be done with a penny flyer, but agree to replicate match situations for attackers and defenders you need to replicate match conditions ie with a proper football. Probably come a time when this aspect is limited to being able to head x balls per week in training.

Long term, the art of heading the ball will start to recede. Good/bad thing, dunno.

I think it's reduced massively compared with the past. Look at the way Boro play now. In the past every single goal kick, free kick, and a lot of throws would have resulted in a header. I'd imagine that trend will continue. What propotion of our goal kicks or free kicks now go long? 20% vs probably 90% in the past? Add in the fact defenders now tend to play out in open play or hit the channels. Combined with lighter balls etc hopefully this contributes to a safer game.

 

[JackG]

Interesting (and Boro-related) article from the Athletic - A Game Without Heading

 

[Nano]

I think it's reduced massively compared with the past. Look at the way Boro play now. In the past every single goal kick, free kick, and a lot of throws would have resulted in a header. I'd imagine that trend will continue. What propotion of our goal kicks or free kicks now go long? 20% vs probably 90% in the past? Add in the fact defenders now tend to play out in open play or hit the channels. Combined with lighter balls etc hopefully this contributes to a safer game.

These things go in cycles. The better teams realised the big, strong defenders could be beaten by small, quick forwards who were good at closing defenders down so the best teams got defenders that were better on the ball to play through the press. There was no need to be so big and strong. We're already seeing the best striker at present, Haaland, having a physical advantage over that sort of defender. Other clubs will follow suit and exploit the small defenders by playing with big strikers that can win headers etc. It's game theory and there is no advantage in staying the same.

 

[wilkos_perm]

These things go in cycles. The better teams realised the big, strong defenders could be beaten by small, quick forwards who were good at closing defenders down so the best teams got defenders that were better on the ball to play through the press. There was no need to be so big and strong. We're already seeing the best striker at present, Haaland, having a physical advantage over that sort of defender. Other clubs will follow suit and exploit the small defenders by playing with big strikers that can win headers etc. It's game theory and there is no advantage in staying the same.

I don't disagree that things go in cycles, but I don't see a return to the big man just battling for headers. Overwhelming defenders with strength and power, yes, but not dealing with endless high balls from goal kicks etc.

 

[CanaryYellowShirt]

Sorry to butt in here (was looking at Boro v Norwich team thread, saw this) but I am currently in the maelstrom of dealing with both my wife's parents both in their late 80's and with dementia/challenging health issues and it's pure relentless full on grind (no violins please). I won't bore you with the detail (it's grim) but Dementia is pure and simple an illness. In our society It's just brushed away with "it's an old age thing" and sufferers/carers are expected to just get on with it, no help no support just p** off and ****ing deal with it. If Cancer patients were told to fund their own Chemo/Radiotherapy/Surgeries then there would be public outroar but fall foul of dementia and you are on your own. Not belittling the link between Football and Dementia the debate seems largely centered round taking heading out of the game and that's laudable but there is a definite bias against health care/carer provision for dementia patients. Apols for the rant.

 

[masquesmog]

Heading in football

"The key take aways from my study are that 80% of the participants failed a common pitchside test for concussion which would recommend them being removed from play,” Ashton said. “We also saw detriments in spatial and digit working memory post-heading compared to a control group of no heading. The fact this was after just 20 headers is hugely worrying and begs the question of the effect a lifetime of heading has.

“I think the main danger [to players] is the constant load in training drills and that’s the main area to target. However, if players are heading it that much in matches it’s an even bigger concern than originally thought and, yes, it would be very worrying."

 

[masquesmog]

Sorry to butt in here (was looking at Boro v Norwich team thread, saw this) but I am currently in the maelstrom of dealing with both my wife's parents both in their late 80's and with dementia/challenging health issues and it's pure relentless full on grind (no violins please). I won't bore you with the detail (it's grim) but Dementia is pure and simple an illness. In our society It's just brushed away with "it's an old age thing" and sufferers/carers are expected to just get on with it, no help no support just p** off and ****ing deal with it. If Cancer patients were told to fund their own Chemo/Radiotherapy/Surgeries then there would be public outroar but fall foul of dementia and you are on your own. Not belittling the link between Football and Dementia the debate seems largely centered round taking heading out of the game and that's laudable but there is a definite bias against health care/carer provision for dementia patients. Apols for the rant.

CYS - completely agree. Dementia and football is serious, but nothing compared to dementia per se. The increase in the need for dementia services, and other services for an ageing population, outstrips what we are currently prepared to put into the NHS and community care. So, you are often left to provide a lot of the care, or fund it, within the family. My family did it in the 70s (my grandmother lived with us for 10 years, 7 of which with dementia), and then my mother in the 90s. Now it is even more of an issue.

BBC with a wider look

 

[fmttmadmin]

I have just interviewed Dr Judith Gates (Bill Gates wife) co-founder and trustee of Head for Change charity.
Dr Gates was speaking at the opening of the MFC Foundation Memory/Memorabilia Exhibition. Sadly the speed of the modern game and the velocity the ball is struck with means that the brain is just as much at risk now as it was with a casey ball.
I thought after this thread coming so recently I had to speak to Dr Gates. She has lots of messages for how we have to change the game but also some really disturbing stories about the nature of the behaviour changes on some of the ex footballers.
Serious stuff. And the starting point has to be education and a realisation that contact sports are bringing dementia in greater numbers, and to a far younger cross section of the population. Also, some of the aggressive behaviour resulting is really disturbing not only for the ex players but their families.
More to follow when I have transcribes the interview