Give me hot water - might you move to Spain?

spanishman

spanishman

Well-known member
Can anyone suggest a good set up for an on demand hot water recirculation system with a return line? For deployment in Europe.

Suitable for a small apartment with 3 sinks and a shower.

On demand, seems to be popular in the USA. Not as much in Europe. It is where you use a Bluetooth button (or other form of starter) to start the recirculation pump. So it only runs when you want it to. It then runs for a short, standard, programmable period of time that can be set on a timer in the pump itself.

There are other ways that you can achieve this using wall timers etc. However it is better if the pump controls the switch on point and duration of running directly.

I am in the process of getting new, better insulated, hot water piping installed. It is being installed in a way that could be converted to use a recirculation pump and a return line in the future.

Any ideas would be much appreciated. Ta.
 
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Some progress on a first world problem. Apologies in advance for being verbose.

In our part of Spain most hot water pipes are uninsulated. So hot water takes ages to be delivered to sinks and showers in the winter.

After a handful of days building work we now have insulated hot water pipes. That can easily be extended into a hot water return loop if needed.

This has shown that our existing water heater was not powerful enough to do what we want.

We got some benefits with the current heater as our shower is first in the almost completed circle of pipework. Followed by the nearby bathroom sink. Now, I wait a minute or so pouring cold and lukewarm water down the drain. Waiting for it to be hot enough to fill the bathroom sink for a shave. Then if I have a shower reasonably soon after the water in the part loop is still hot enough for the shower to be usable. So I get hot water in a few seconds in the shower. As the total distance from the part loop to the shower head that is filled with cold water is only about 2-3 metres. Previously, after a shave, it took over a minute of wasting lukewarm water again until the shower was hot enough to use.

After a lot of research I have chosen a new Rinnai tankless water heater. It will be delivered on Thursday. Then installed soon after that. All being well.

Hopefully the increased hot water flow rate that this heater should provide will reduce the bathroom sink hot water warm up time.

So in another 7-10 days I should be able to see if we shorten the hot water delivery times in all of our apartment.

Linking all of this back to my original question......

The reason I chose the Rinnai water heater is that it can be configured with a Rinnai recirculation pump with Rinnai on demand rf buttons (plus some other small bits and pieces) to turn on the pump. If we decide to install that in the future. Rather than us using components from multiple manufacturers to build the recirculation system.

If we do install this system we will press an rf button in the kitchen or bathroom. Then wait a minute or so doing something else. Then switch on the tap/faucet to get hot water almost straight away. As the water in the return loop has gone through the heater multiple times until it reaches a set temperature. When the tap or shower gets switched on the water in the pipes is hot in the loop. So much much much less wasted water.

The "cold water sandwich" can be a small problem that occurs with such a system. However I can live with that if it happens from time to time.

This work going on is why I have not been on here much recently.

Also I have noticed that all the ads on display are for plumbing stuff now.

Well done to anyone who manages to stay awake to read this sentence.
 
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I've fitted such a system to a large property I lived in but only to outlets that were most distant from the tank. Just ran it as a passive system. Worked a treat.

Never thought of it as a problem with smaller systems mind.

BTW. Thanks for all the screwfix ads. After all, a man can never have too many cans of WD40.
 
spanishman said:
Some progress on a first world problem. Apologies in advance for being verbose.

In our part of Spain most hot water pipes are uninsulated. So hot water takes ages to be delivered to sinks and showers in the winter.

After a handful of days building work we now have insulated hot water pipes. That can easily be extended into a hot water return loop if needed.

This has shown that our existing water heater was not powerful enough to do what we want.

We got some benefits with the current heater as our shower is first in the almost completed circle of pipework. Followed by the nearby bathroom sink. Now, I wait a minute or so pouring cold and lukewarm water down the drain. Waiting for it to be hot enough to fill the bathroom sink for a shave. Then if I have a shower reasonably soon after the water in the part loop is still hot enough for the shower to be usable. So I get hot water in a few seconds in the shower. As the total distance from the part loop to the shower head that is filled with cold water is only about 2-3 metres. Previously, after a shave, it took over a minute of wasting lukewarm water again until the shower was hot enough to use.

After a lot of research I have chosen a new Rinnai tankless water heater. It will be delivered on Thursday. Then installed soon after that. All being well.

Hopefully the increased hot water flow rate that this heater should provide will reduce the bathroom sink hot water warm up time.

So in another 7-10 days I should be able to see if we shorten the hot water delivery times in all of our apartment.

Linking all of this back to my original question......

The reason I chose the Rinnai water heater is that it can be configured with a Rinnai recirculation pump with Rinnai on demand rf buttons (plus some other small bits and pieces) to turn on the pump. If we decide to install that in the future. Rather than us using components from multiple manufacturers to build the recirculation system.

If we do install this system we will press an rf button in the kitchen or bathroom. Then wait a minute or so doing something else. Then switch on the tap/faucet to get hot water almost straight away. As the water in the return loop has gone through the heater multiple times until it reaches a set temperature. When the tap or shower gets switched on the water in the pipes is hot in the loop. So much much much less wasted water.

The "cold water sandwich" can be a small problem that occurs with such a system. However I can live with that if it happens from time to time.

This work going on is why I have not been on here much recently.

Also I have noticed that all the ads on display are for plumbing stuff now.

Well done to anyone who manages to stay awake to read this sentence.
Click to expand...

Fair play for being persistent with it on here - its a bit niche 😏
Glad you have got it sorted tho
Enjoy your weekend
 
BiggEggo said:
I've fitted such a system to a large property I lived in but only to outlets that were most distant from the tank. Just ran it as a passive system. Worked a treat.

Never thought of it as a problem with smaller systems mind.

BTW. Thanks for all the screwfix ads. After all, a man can never have too many cans of WD40.
Click to expand...
The problem is how houses are built in our part of Spain Very badly insulated for both heat and noise.

Before we moved back in to our "forever" small apartment we improved the glazing and partially insulated the place for sound from other apartments.

We did not have time or inclination to do a 100% job of the sound proofing. As it would have made the bathroom too small.

The sound proofing keeps the place warm all winter. The place is at least 20 C in winter. We only use the reversible aircon to heat the place very infrequently. A lot of the time just to test it is working.

It is hot in the summer. We have fly screens on the windows and ceiling fans. Or we use the aircon if we have a really hot spell.

We really only need good hot water insulation and delivery 4-5 months of the year.

This is a one off (ish) cost to improve our quality of life quite a bit during the winter.
 
spanishman said:
The problem is how houses are built in our part of Spain Very badly insulated for both heat and noise.

Before we moved back in to our "forever" small apartment we improved the glazing and partially insulated the place for sound from other apartments.

We did not have time or inclination to do a 100% job of the sound proofing. As it would have made the bathroom too small.

The sound proofing keeps the place warm all winter. The place is at least 20 C in winter. We only use the reversible aircon to heat the place very infrequently. A lot of the time just to test it is working.

It is hot in the summer. We have fly screens on the windows and ceiling fans. Or we use the aircon if we have a really hot spell.

We really only need good hot water insulation and delivery 4-5 months of the year.

This is a one off (ish) cost to improve our quality of life quite a bit during the winter.
Click to expand...
Another thing is that from time to time I get asked questions about moving out to Spain via private messages.

So I thought that this post would help some people who may be interested to understand one of the issues I have.
 
spanishman said:
Some progress on a first world problem. Apologies in advance for being verbose.

In our part of Spain most hot water pipes are uninsulated. So hot water takes ages to be delivered to sinks and showers in the winter.

After a handful of days building work we now have insulated hot water pipes. That can easily be extended into a hot water return loop if needed.

This has shown that our existing water heater was not powerful enough to do what we want.

We got some benefits with the current heater as our shower is first in the almost completed circle of pipework. Followed by the nearby bathroom sink. Now, I wait a minute or so pouring cold and lukewarm water down the drain. Waiting for it to be hot enough to fill the bathroom sink for a shave. Then if I have a shower reasonably soon after the water in the part loop is still hot enough for the shower to be usable. So I get hot water in a few seconds in the shower. As the total distance from the part loop to the shower head that is filled with cold water is only about 2-3 metres. Previously, after a shave, it took over a minute of wasting lukewarm water again until the shower was hot enough to use.

After a lot of research I have chosen a new Rinnai tankless water heater. It will be delivered on Thursday. Then installed soon after that. All being well.

Hopefully the increased hot water flow rate that this heater should provide will reduce the bathroom sink hot water warm up time.

So in another 7-10 days I should be able to see if we shorten the hot water delivery times in all of our apartment.

Linking all of this back to my original question......

The reason I chose the Rinnai water heater is that it can be configured with a Rinnai recirculation pump with Rinnai on demand rf buttons (plus some other small bits and pieces) to turn on the pump. If we decide to install that in the future. Rather than us using components from multiple manufacturers to build the recirculation system.

If we do install this system we will press an rf button in the kitchen or bathroom. Then wait a minute or so doing something else. Then switch on the tap/faucet to get hot water almost straight away. As the water in the return loop has gone through the heater multiple times until it reaches a set temperature. When the tap or shower gets switched on the water in the pipes is hot in the loop. So much much much less wasted water.

The "cold water sandwich" can be a small problem that occurs with such a system. However I can live with that if it happens from time to time.

This work going on is why I have not been on here much recently.

Also I have noticed that all the ads on display are for plumbing stuff now.

Well done to anyone who manages to stay awake to read this sentence.
Click to expand...
Cheapest option is probably an electric razor
 
This is nothing to do with your hot water, but I thought it would do no harm to read this article on a drug that is banned in many countries but given out without prescription in Spain. Pass it on to the rest of the british contingent if you feel it merits it.
www.theguardian.com

‘Like a bad dream’: Briton’s death in Spain heightens fears about painkiller Nolotil

The controversial painkiller is being cited in a growing number of deaths in Spain despite warnings about dangerous side-effects
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
 
pierrequiroule said:
This is nothing to do with your hot water, but I thought it would do no harm to read this article on a drug that is banned in many countries but given out without prescription in Spain. Pass it on to the rest of the british contingent if you feel it merits it.
www.theguardian.com

‘Like a bad dream’: Briton’s death in Spain heightens fears about painkiller Nolotil

The controversial painkiller is being cited in a growing number of deaths in Spain despite warnings about dangerous side-effects
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com
Click to expand...
Yep. I read that earlier today. Worrying.
 
spanishman said:
Some progress on a first world problem. Apologies in advance for being verbose.

In our part of Spain most hot water pipes are uninsulated. So hot water takes ages to be delivered to sinks and showers in the winter.

After a handful of days building work we now have insulated hot water pipes. That can easily be extended into a hot water return loop if needed.

This has shown that our existing water heater was not powerful enough to do what we want.

We got some benefits with the current heater as our shower is first in the almost completed circle of pipework. Followed by the nearby bathroom sink. Now, I wait a minute or so pouring cold and lukewarm water down the drain. Waiting for it to be hot enough to fill the bathroom sink for a shave. Then if I have a shower reasonably soon after the water in the part loop is still hot enough for the shower to be usable. So I get hot water in a few seconds in the shower. As the total distance from the part loop to the shower head that is filled with cold water is only about 2-3 metres. Previously, after a shave, it took over a minute of wasting lukewarm water again until the shower was hot enough to use.

After a lot of research I have chosen a new Rinnai tankless water heater. It will be delivered on Thursday. Then installed soon after that. All being well.

Hopefully the increased hot water flow rate that this heater should provide will reduce the bathroom sink hot water warm up time.

So in another 7-10 days I should be able to see if we shorten the hot water delivery times in all of our apartment.

Linking all of this back to my original question......

The reason I chose the Rinnai water heater is that it can be configured with a Rinnai recirculation pump with Rinnai on demand rf buttons (plus some other small bits and pieces) to turn on the pump. If we decide to install that in the future. Rather than us using components from multiple manufacturers to build the recirculation system.

If we do install this system we will press an rf button in the kitchen or bathroom. Then wait a minute or so doing something else. Then switch on the tap/faucet to get hot water almost straight away. As the water in the return loop has gone through the heater multiple times until it reaches a set temperature. When the tap or shower gets switched on the water in the pipes is hot in the loop. So much much much less wasted water.

The "cold water sandwich" can be a small problem that occurs with such a system. However I can live with that if it happens from time to time.

This work going on is why I have not been on here much recently.

Also I have noticed that all the ads on display are for plumbing stuff now.

Well done to anyone who manages to stay awake to read this sentence.
Click to expand...
The story continues for any nerd with an interest.

The new water heater was installed today. In combination with the insulated pipes I am seeing a considerable improvement in winter hot water delivery in the apartment. Thank goodness.

I am now going to try the current set up for a couple of months. After that the cold season will be over until the autumn. So any further testing and improvements will have to wait until the autumn and beyond.
 
I ended up finishing the project a couple of weeks ago.

It will save me píssing away loads of water down the sink while waiting for hot water to arrive at the taps and shower.

This info might be of use if anyone else on here decides to move out to live in Spain.

I have these in the kitchen and the bathroom That is all that is visible in the apartment. This is the one for the bathroom.
BathroomHotWater.jpg
Just press two buttons at about the same time. One for a timer. So you know when to turn on the hot tap. One to initiate the hot water recirculation system. So it warms up the cold (or lukewarm) water in the now insulated new circle of hot water pipes.

It takes just under 50 seconds to get hot water ready for use at the bathroom sink. The shower is first on the loop in the apartment. So that takes just under 30 seconds. So if I am having a shower I switch off the countdown timer when it reaches 20 seconds.

The kitchen is last in the loop. So that time to have hot water ready at the tap is a lot longer (1 minute 50 seconds). This is similar to how long we used to be pouring cold or lukewarm water down the sink in the winter. Waiting for hot water to arrive in the kitchen via uninsulated pipes.

The is what is in the lavadero (laundry room) over the corridor from the apartment.

You can see the insulated hot water feed and return pipes in 2 photos. Plus the water heater and a box containing all the recirculation kit in the 3rd. Plus various other bits and pieces to control the water pressure, soften the water etc.
Lavadero1.jpgLavadero2.jpgLavadero3.jpg
 
1finny said:
Jaysus - that’s impressive - too man
I struggle with a frickin screwdriver
Click to expand...
I am like you. My dad was a carpenter/joiner. I failed O level woodwork.

I had a hard working plumber/builder and his labourer working for quite some time.

Here is what it looks like under the kitchen sink.

With our water filter in front of the red, hot water pipework.
1000015749_edited.jpeg
Most of the loop pipework is hidden. Above the false ceiling we had in the bathroom. Also embedded in the outside walls and running above the corridor false ceiling.
 
I suppose Spanish houses are built to keep cool.
We had a Vaillant combi boiler running off 10 gas cylinders, 5 on line, 5 ready to be filled.
In addition we used to get a lorry load of logs for the open file.
We reckoned it cost us more to heat the villa than the house in the UK.
 
Lottowyn said:
I suppose Spanish houses are built to keep cool.
We had a Vaillant combi boiler running off 10 gas cylinders, 5 on line, 5 ready to be filled.
In addition we used to get a lorry load of logs for the open file.
We reckoned it cost us more to heat the villa than the house in the UK.
Click to expand...
We put in sound insulation plus new windows and doors just over 10 years ago. The sound insulation keeps our apartment warm in the winter. Along with better windows and doors. We hardly ever need to heat the place in the winter.
 
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