Keir Starmer

1finny said:
On the bigger picture ref Starmer and the ‘revolt’.
I think its a good thing.
I understand Starmer’s position and I understand the position of those that voted for the ceasefire.

I’m not going to condemn anyone for taking a view on this - I don’t think it is an easy one.

A ‘free vote’ would have been an easy option - I’m struggling to understand why he didn’t do that and all I can think of is there would have been a cry of ‘weak leadership’.
That is his headline for Sunak and he wouldn’t risk that.
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I’ve had a look this morning at a few polls on YouGov and in my opinion the UK appears to be pretty split on this. It is a very complicated conflict over many years and I suppose the risk that Labour have is damaging their poll lead by coming down hard on one side of the other and the associated risks this would pose. It has already been mentioned that being too pro-Palestine could start claims of anti-semitism etc.

It could be looked upon as a strength of the Labour Party that MP’s have the bravery to stand up for what they believe and this is to be applauded.

I want a ceasefire but I am not sure how we get one. Hamas will not adhere to it. Is it then folly to call for one as you will get the obvious questions as to how it is implemented?

It’s a shame that those on the shadow front bench went against the whip but they have stood up for their views. Fair enough.

I am not sure Starmer or Labour can change the Government’s position on Isreal anyway. It might not be the best idea politically to die on this sword when the aim is to win the next GE.

Such a difficult subject.
 
Otto42 said:
Exactly this and why I kept out of this thread, except for a quip about Corbyn. They've driven off anyone vaguely right wing and if they aren't careful they'll drive off anyone not on the left of the Labour Party.
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I think they are idealists and I think that is fine but it is a dangerous mentality to just shut down alternative views.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I’m not saying I agree with his posts or that they should be beyond criticism but he does have the right to his opinion without being accused or abused.
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Nobody abused him. It appears from that post that he weighed up the moral versus the financial cases for selling arms to tyrannical countries and came down on the financial side.
 
equaliser said:
You have a point, certainly: there's seldom any 'equivalence' in news coverage between Western 'like us' casualties and brown-skinned 'over there' ones.
You're absolutely wrong there's no "more to it than that" though. Like 9/11. the nature of the incursion on October 7th had an element of performative cruelty that it is impossible to turn away from, especially if you're Israeli. Imagine it happened down the road from you, to families you may know.
Of course it's a trap Israel was always going to walk into and now they're the bad guys whom everyone hates once again. But whatever the back story, you can't deny they have reason to walk there. It's also a 'Western luxury for us to sit in our cosy homes and fail to imagine how it feels to be them at this moment.
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Or to live in the West bank and suffer seeing your children shot, your home raided in the middle of the night, armed soldiers forcing you out of your home and buldoze it within hours, have your husband, son, daughter, mother arrested and detained without charge indefinitely, get shot and threatened and physically assaulted dsaily by zionist extremists who are armed and watched over by Israeli police. Have your crops and land set fire by Israeli extremists, fig and olive trees uprooted, aquifers filled with cement to deprive villages and towns of water, torture and physical attack from the Israeli soldiers on the street. Forced into refugee camps whilst Israeli extremists build on stolen Palestinian land. Israeli bulldozers churning up the main road in your town to make it unusable. Checkpoints and rolling road-blocks for every non-jew. Forced through cages to get to the other side of the road. Not allowed out of the area to see relatives or friends. Prohibited from travelling. Over 800 children detained indefinitely in prison without charge - without access from a lawyer or parent dependent on the military. Military law rules the West Bank and its been like it for over 70 years.

Read on>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

1700123765983.png
1700123715205.png
imemc.org

Israeli Army Abducts Sixty Palestinians, Including Fifteen Young Women, in the West Bank

At dawn Wednesday, and continuing on throughout the day and evening, Israeli forces abducted a total of 60 Palestinians in various regions of the occupied W ...
imemc.org
 
Politicians and political parties shown where they stand

They will presumably have factored in this conflict will last for months and bulldozers have already demolished 50% of the properties so nobody is returning home. It will get worse and the next phase will be ethnic cleansing of pushing people out into Europe

Every time anyone watches TV or reads about the events over in Gaza they will be reminded how parliament voted

I expect alot of MPs can expect to see a significant drop in votes at the next GE

There was no reason to vote against a ceasefire sefore
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Nobody abused him. It appears from that post that he weighed up the moral versus the financial cases for selling arms to tyrannical countries and came down on the financial side.
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From what I read it was more nuanced than that. In an ideal world no one would sell arms to anyone and there would be no wars.....I think John Lennon stayed in bed to get war to end and Boy George sang a song about it being stupid!
 
Somehow, from all of this, the word "ceasefire" has become a loaded political weapon. A weapon used to sow division, the mere mention of it, is then used by all side to beat the other with.

The SNP tabled this motion now because they sensed it would split Labour, why? Because Labour are threatening to win in Scotland. Pure politics.

Does any of this help the innocent civilians being killed in Gaza? Absolutely not.
 
HolgateCorner said:
I’m not saying I agree with his posts or that they should be beyond criticism but he does have the right to his opinion without being accused or abused.

Nobody on this Boro forum can vaguely influence Tory and U.K. foreign policy, nor can the Labour Party out of power in a divided nation, why be so vitriolic and intolerant about looking at alternative opinions?

I really, really can’t understand it.
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To be honest parts of the thread are awful. Middle aged men in their centrally heated house insulting each other to win an argument whilst people die.
 
r00fie1 said:
Or to live in the West bank and suffer seeing your children shot, your home raided in the middle of the night, armed soldiers forcing you out of your home and buldoze it within hours, have your husband, son, daughter, mother arrested and detained without charge indefinitely, get shot and threatened and physically assaulted dsaily by zionist extremists who are armed and watched over by Israeli police. Have your crops and land set fire by Israeli extremists, fig and olive trees uprooted, aquifers filled with cement to deprive villages and towns of water, torture and physical attack from the Israeli soldiers on the street. Forced into refugee camps whilst Israeli extremists build on stolen Palestinian land. Israeli bulldozers churning up the main road in your town to make it unusable. Checkpoints and rolling road-blocks for every non-jew. Forced through cages to get to the other side of the road. Not allowed out of the area to see relatives or friends. Prohibited from travelling. Over 800 children detained indefinitely in prison without charge - without access from a lawyer or parent dependent on the military. Military law rules the West Bank and its been like it for over 70 years.

Read on>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

View attachment 67126
View attachment 67125
imemc.org

Israeli Army Abducts Sixty Palestinians, Including Fifteen Young Women, in the West Bank

At dawn Wednesday, and continuing on throughout the day and evening, Israeli forces abducted a total of 60 Palestinians in various regions of the occupied W ...
imemc.org
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Israel won't admit it but through decades of them making Gaza a prison they have created hamas. What else can a citizen in Gaza do but go and attack Israel after generations of persecution the hatred builds up and up until they reach breaking point.
 
Boro4life said:
Israel won't admit it but through decades of them making Gaza a prison they have created hamas. What else can a citizen in Gaza do but go and attack Israel after generations of persecution the hatred builds up and up until they reach breaking point.
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There is a great article in The Byline Times basically concluding Hamas needs Israel like Israel need Hamas.
It’s worth a read - I’m sure it will be on their website.
 
Otto42 said:
The arguments with Coluka went beyond debate imho, if you can't see that I despair.
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No it didn't

Corluka was concerned that bombs being dropped illegally as part of collective punishment which breaks the Geneva convention and to ethnically cleanse should continue as it might cost some UK jobs

That's quite an extreme right wing view IMO.

And from memory he randomly blamed the left at one point so if he wants to start attacking individuals/groups don't be surprised if your right wing views get challenged back
 
Laughing said:
To be honest parts of the thread are awful. Middle aged men in their centrally heated house insulting each other to win an argument whilst people die.
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Morning Laughing. Its more heartbreaking when you`ve seen it. Its takes your breath away and makes you feel helpless - a human reaction to seeing others being killed. Dreadful.
 
r00fie1 said:
Morning Laughing. Its more heartbreaking when you`ve seen it. Its takes your breath away and makes you feel helpless - a human reaction to seeing others being killed. Dreadful.
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It's why I haven't engaged with these kinds of threads. I read them, care deeply, but find the bickering unedifying.

Oneupmanship has no place when discussing a tragedy of this nature.

On a lighter note, good morning old man!
 
WJH. said:
No it didn't

Corluka was concerned that bombs being dropped illegally as part of collective punishment which breaks the Geneva convention and to ethnically cleanse should continue as it might cost some UK jobs
an individual
That's quite an extreme right wing view IMO.

And from memory he randomly blamed the left at one point so if he wants to start attacking individuals/groups don't be surprised if your right wing views get challenged back
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That's quite selective and paraphrased summary. If you have read Coluka's posts over the years you'll know he's not extreme right wing. Blaming the left or the right isn't the same as abusing as an individual because they have a different point of view to you. I'll leave it there, as I think the abuse was uncalled for and you think what was posted was acceptable.
 
coluka said:
We do, sell arms, as I am sure many countries do sell them arms. We should stop selling arms immediately and let other nations get rich doing it, while our own arms industry shuts down leaving he UK more at risk and less well off. It would make Vlad the lad happy if we shut our industry down and made citizens redundant, good plan.
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The responses was yes. Yes we should stop making and selling bombs to be dropped iegally under collective punishment and ethnic cleansing which is forbidden under the Geneva convention
 
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