Keir Starmer

Whataboutery. You do realise i think Netanyahu is a war criminal i hope. I am no Israel fan but i accept they have a legitimate right not to have their people slaughtered and beheaded
Oh whataboutery. As i explained on another thread I don't give a damn about accusations of whataboutery, it's nothing more than a cheap and clumsy way of trying to stifle debate whilst in reality what it does is highlight hypocrisy or demonstrate that someone hasn't made the killer point that they think they have.
Crying whataboutery does not win you the argument.
 
View attachment 67041

Hansard


Monday 23rd October 2023

Jeremy Corbyn

(Islington North) (Ind)



The killings on 7 October were appalling and have to be totally condemned, as everyone has today. However, the loss of 5,000 Palestinian lives in Gaza is continuing and getting worse. The question is: why did the Prime Minister instruct Britain’s representative to the UN not to support the call for a very minimal thing, which is a humanitarian pause to allow aid to go in and a ceasefire to take place, to start to bring about a process of peace? Ultimately, that is the only way forward. Ultimately, the only way forward is the end of the occupation. Ultimately, the only way forward is recognition of the rights of the people of Palestine.





Wednesday 8th November 2023

Jeremy Corbyn

(Islington North) (Ind)


There are 1,400 dead in Israel and 10,000 dead in Gaza; there is increased military activity on the west bank, increased settler violence, and now more and more children dying as this conflict goes on in Gaza. Prime Minister Netanyahu is now promising that Israel will control the Gaza strip into the indefinite future. Is it not time that the British Government joined all those other sensible and reasonable voices around the world that are doing everything they can to demand and get a ceasefire to prevent any further loss of life and to begin to work out a peaceful future for all the people in the region?

Yes, I found that. He doesn't call Hamas a terrorist group, which was what was stated.
 
I think Jonny Ingbar has answered it.

As abhorrent Hamas and it's actions are, I'm not sure anyone can really justify giving Israel a blank cheque to commit as many war crimes as it likes in retaliation against innocent Palestinians (including children) who'll want nothing to do with Hamas.

Would we welcome their advice if the positions were reversed? Maybe not, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't need it. Netanyahu is fascist and war criminal. He certainly shouldn't be pandered to. He must F***ing love it that he's practically untouchable in the west because everyone is too busy s***ing themselves about being called anti-semitic or because we want "friends" in the region.
This in a nutshell
 
Oh whataboutery. As i explained on another thread I don't give a damn about accusations of whataboutery, it's nothing more than a cheap and clumsy way of trying to stifle debate whilst in reality what it does is highlight hypocrisy or demonstrate that someone hasn't made the killer point that they think they have.
Crying whataboutery does not win you the argument.
A word you use when it suits you though, if you give it you need to take it too

It is not about winning an argument, well not for me anyway. There are the innocent palestinians, the Hamas supporting Palestinians, Hamas and Israel, with the west , Iran and others all in the mix.

There was a ceasefire that was ended by Hamas, the group Jezza struggles to call terrorists when asked. Israel and Palestine both have legitimate rights to exist in peace. Hamas knew what Israels response would be, they orchestrated it likely thanks to Iranian help. They brought this carnage on the Palastinians in Gaza knowing Netanyahu’s likely response. They have what they wanted and Putins lot will be chirpy about it too.
Netanyahu looks like a war criminal to me as does Hamas. They are terrorists, you do not negotiate with them. After the slaughter of the 7th, what should Israel have actually done, shrugged their shoulders and asked the UN to tell Hamas, Iran and their ilk to just stop it?

War is ugly, innocent people always die, should they, no. Should Churchill have ignored Hitler in WW2 and hoped those beastly Nazi’s stopped at Calais?
 
"Beheaded" - even President Biden debunked that accusation.
Pure propaganda by the IDF.
No, actually it was later accepted by him

 
There are the innocent palestinians, the Hamas supporting Palestinians, Hamas and Israel, with the west , Iran and others all in the mix.

Col, in your opinion are the Israelis similarly divided between innocent Israelis and Netanyahu/Likud supporting Israelis?

What's the point of the distinction? What ought to happen to Hamas supporting Palestinians and Netanyahu/Likud supporting Israelis?
 
A word you use when it suits you though, if you give it you need to take it too

It is not about winning an argument, well not for me anyway. There are the innocent palestinians, the Hamas supporting Palestinians, Hamas and Israel, with the west , Iran and others all in the mix.

There was a ceasefire that was ended by Hamas, the group Jezza struggles to call terrorists when asked. Israel and Palestine both have legitimate rights to exist in peace. Hamas knew what Israels response would be, they orchestrated it likely thanks to Iranian help. They brought this carnage on the Palastinians in Gaza knowing Netanyahu’s likely response. They have what they wanted and Putins lot will be chirpy about it too.
Netanyahu looks like a war criminal to me as does Hamas. They are terrorists, you do not negotiate with them. After the slaughter of the 7th, what should Israel have actually done, shrugged their shoulders and asked the UN to tell Hamas, Iran and their ilk to just stop it?

War is ugly, innocent people always die, should they, no. Should Churchill have ignored Hitler in WW2 and hoped those beastly Nazi’s stopped at Calais?
Which ceasefire are you on about? Israel has been bombing the sh*t out of Gaza and Palestine for my entire life. The issue is how and why they’ve been allowed to do this for so long, so regularly, without fear of international sanction.
 
Which ceasefire are you on about? Israel has been bombing the sh*t out of Gaza and Palestine for my entire life. The issue is how and why they’ve been allowed to do this for so long, so regularly, without fear of international sanction.
You will have heard of the Iron Dome and safe rooms in Israeli houses I suppose.
 
A word you use when it suits you though, if you give it you need to take it too

I honestly can't remember using that term. I may have done before I realised what a cheap trick it is, but I really can't remember when.
There was a ceasefire that was ended by Hamas, the group Jezza struggles to call terrorists when asked.
During that ceasefire Israel never stopped dispossessing Palestinians of their land and houses, handing them over to settlers from Europe and the US. They never stopped arresting men women and children without charge and torturing them in Israeli jails. They never stopped killing children playing football on the beach. Zionists claim to speak for all Jews but in 1942 they were terrorising Palestine, attacking the British and bombing infrastructure. They even asked for help from Germany, that's how much they cared for Jews. Do you think Palestine will get peace and freedom if they wait patiently?

Here is the funeral of one of the many journalists killed by iDF.

 
They are terrorists, you do not negotiate with them.

How do you ever get peace then? Sooner or later different sides have to talk don't they? How did the Good Friday Agreement come about? Just finally killed the right people on either side?

After the slaughter of the 7th, what should Israel have actually done, shrugged their shoulders and asked the UN to tell Hamas, Iran and their ilk to just stop it?

War is ugly, innocent people always die, should they, no. Should Churchill have ignored Hitler in WW2 and hoped those beastly Nazi’s stopped at Calais?

But doesn't all this apply to the Palestinians as well? Israel are the ones occupying Palestinian territory, forcing Palestinians out of their homes, they've killed 20 times as many people over the last 15 years - should the Palestinians just shrug their shoulders and ask the UN to tell Israel to just stop it? You can't just apply this sort of reasoning and logic to one side and not the other.
 
No, actually it was later accepted by him

White House walks back Biden’s claim he saw children beheaded by Hamas


1700002020218.png
US president spokesperson says comments were based on news reports and claims of Israeli officials.



US President Joe Biden has been forced to walk back claims that he saw images of children beheaded by Hamas [Jonathan Ernst/Reuters]


Published On 12 Oct 202312 Oct 2023

The White House has walked back President Joe Biden’s claim that he saw pictures of beheaded children following Hamas’s deadly attack on Israel.

The reversal came after Biden on Wednesday described seeing images of mutilated children during a meeting with Jewish leaders at the White House.
 

White House walks back Biden’s claim he saw children beheaded by Hamas


View attachment 67044
US president spokesperson says comments were based on news reports and claims of Israeli officials.



US President Joe Biden has been forced to walk back claims that he saw images of children beheaded by Hamas [Jonathan Ernst/Reuters]


Published On 12 Oct 202312 Oct 2023

The White House has walked back President Joe Biden’s claim that he saw pictures of beheaded children following Hamas’s deadly attack on Israel.

The reversal came after Biden on Wednesday described seeing images of mutilated children during a meeting with Jewish leaders at the White House.

Isn't that such a weird circumstance? I wonder what actually went on there. Have his handlers shown him an image from somewhere/something else?
 
Col, in your opinion are the Israelis similarly divided between innocent Israelis and Netanyahu/Likud supporting Israelis?

What's the point of the distinction? What ought to happen to Hamas supporting Palestinians and Netanyahu/Likud supporting Israelis?
Of course istaelis are divided on leadership isnt every country? Netty is a war criminal but also 7/10/23 changed minds in some.
Nobody deserves to die on any side, but if you think wars can always be avoided when terrorists roam Earth, good luck with that. Easy to say from a safe uk home. The kibutz residents thought they were safe too.

What ought to happen is everyone is life, but so long as killers walk the Earth on all sides, it will never happen. Utopia is not a place on Earth. Humans are not capable of living in peace. Crime is rife everywhere and potential killers live among us, maybe even on both our streets
 

White House walks back Biden’s claim he saw children beheaded by Hamas


View attachment 67044
US president spokesperson says comments were based on news reports and claims of Israeli officials.



US President Joe Biden has been forced to walk back claims that he saw images of children beheaded by Hamas [Jonathan Ernst/Reuters]


Published On 12 Oct 202312 Oct 2023

The White House has walked back President Joe Biden’s claim that he saw pictures of beheaded children following Hamas’s deadly attack on Israel.

The reversal came after Biden on Wednesday described seeing images of mutilated children during a meeting with Jewish leaders at the White House.
The white house not Biden, you and i dont know the truth
 

White House walks back Biden’s claim he saw children beheaded by Hamas


View attachment 67044
US president spokesperson says comments were based on news reports and claims of Israeli officials.



US President Joe Biden has been forced to walk back claims that he saw images of children beheaded by Hamas [Jonathan Ernst/Reuters]


Published On 12 Oct 202312 Oct 2023

The White House has walked back President Joe Biden’s claim that he saw pictures of beheaded children following Hamas’s deadly attack on Israel.

The reversal came after Biden on Wednesday described seeing images of mutilated children during a meeting with Jewish leaders at the White House.

The original comment wasn't about that specific claim, but the initial attack. There's many reports of those victims bodies being degraded and mutilated.

Not least that poor German girl.
 
Isn't that such a weird circumstance? I wonder what actually went on there. Have his handlers shown him an image from somewhere/something else?
Have they showed footage of the Israeli Apatchi helicopter firing indiscriminately at anything that moved following the Hamas attack on the four military bases by the border. There is stone cold silence from the West. Have they also mentioned the cross-fire exchange between the Israel Soldiers and tanks present in the area?
The white house not Biden, you and i dont know the truth
Depends where you get your information from and look behind their "story".

John Pilger said

"Its not enough for journalists to see themselves as mere messengers, without understanding the hidden agendas of the message and the myths that surround it"
 
Which ceasefire are you on about? Israel has been bombing the sh*t out of Gaza and Palestine for my entire life. The issue is how and why they’ve been allowed to do this for so long, so regularly, without fear of international sanction.
The one that existed on 6/10/23 before Hamas reined terror. Read my posts rather than singular points.
Have they showed footage of the Israeli Apatchi helicopter firing indiscriminately at anything that moved following the Hamas attack on the four military bases by the border. There is stone cold silence from the West. Have they also mentioned the cross-fire exchange between the Israel Soldiers and tanks present in the area?

Depends where you get your information from and look behind their "story".

John Pilger said

"Its not enough for journalists to see themselves as mere messengers, without understanding the hidden agendas of the message and the myths that surround it"
Pilger is right.

1. What do you think Israel shoul have done in response to protect its people.
2. Have Hamas protected Palestinians by attacking and slaughtering people in a kibutz, are you ok with that?
3. Should countries negotiate with terrorists and accept the occasional slaughter to get round a table.
4. How do you get a terror group round a table before slaughter?

Easy this diplomacy init!!!!.
 
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