Keir Starmer

coluka said:
The one that existed on 6/10/23 before Hamas reined terror. Read my posts rather than singular points.

Pilger is right.

1. What do you think Israel shoul have done in response to protect its people.
2. Have Hamas protected Palestinians by attacking and slaughtering people in a kibutz, are you ok with that?
3. Should countries negotiate with terrorists and accept the occadional slaughter to get round a table.
4. How do you get a terror group round a table before slaughter?

Easy this diplomacy init!!!!.
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For a start you dont accept the official story as the truth.
You dont accept it was as reported and that Israel was protecting "its people".
Always ask questions first.
What were the Apachi helicopter, Israeli Soldiers and tanks doing nearbye ?
Did Hamas really just walk out of Northern Gaza, undetected by the worlds most sophisticated military war machine, with its high-tech surveillence equipment?

As for 3 / 4:
Thatchers government were carrying "secret" out negotiations with the IRA - when it was classed as a "Terrorist" organisation.
If you get a "terror group" - around a table [before slaughter] it means you have begun making steps in the right direction which acknowldeges "slaughter" can be avoided.
 
r00fie1 said:
For a start you dont accept the official story as the truth.
You dont accept it was as reported and that Israel was protecting "its people".
Always ask questions first.
What were the Apachi helicopter, Israeli Soldiers and tanks doing nearbye ?
Did Hamas really just walk out of Northern Gaza, undetected by the worlds most sophisticated military war machine, with its high-tech surveillence equipment?

As for 3 / 4:
Thatchers government were carrying "secret" out negotiations with the IRA - when it was classed as a "Terrorist" organisation.
If you get a "terror group" - around a table [before slaughter] it means you have begun making steps in the right direction which acknowldeges "slaughter" can be avoided.
Click to expand...
Chamberlain ring any bells?

You ask ???'s about Hamas walking through, sounds like you like a conspiracy theory, maybe your judgement has an in built bias? Who knows we all have bias to some degree

Terror groups love a cosy chat and a cup of tea, so JC tells us, guaranteed success. If only governments knew it was easy peasy.

You choose to believe some journalism as you quote it, do you always check its truth and if so what metrics do you choose to ensure its accuracy?

Anyway, time for bed g'night, sleep well... something innocent Israelis and Palestinians can't do, even arguably in the UK now sadly 😥
 
r00fie1 said:
For a start you dont accept the official story as the truth.
You dont accept it was as reported and that Israel was protecting "its people".
Always ask questions first.
What were the Apachi helicopter, Israeli Soldiers and tanks doing nearbye ?
Did Hamas really just walk out of Northern Gaza, undetected by the worlds most sophisticated military war machine, with its high-tech surveillence equipment?
Click to expand...

So, where did you get that information on the Apachi and tanks from? I've seen that thread on twitter too.
 
festa5 said:
I think Jonny Ingbar has answered it.

As abhorrent Hamas and it's actions are, I'm not sure anyone can really justify giving Israel a blank cheque to commit as many war crimes as it likes in retaliation against innocent Palestinians (including children) who'll want nothing to do with Hamas.

Would we welcome their advice if the positions were reversed? Maybe not, but that doesn't mean we wouldn't need it. Netanyahu is fascist and war criminal. He certainly shouldn't be pandered to. He must F***ing love it that he's practically untouchable in the west because everyone is too busy s***ing themselves about being called anti-semitic or because we want "friends" in the region.
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Jonny's comment was fair enough; there probably is an strong element of electoral calculation in Starmer's position.

And as for giving Israel a blank cheque, that's not what I was saying. After October 7th Israel was always going to be awarding itself a blank cheque - Hamas naturally knew this - and there was no the slightest thing anyone - least of all Keir Starmer! - was going to be able to do about it.

My point concerned the hostages. Having one's fellow citizens seized from the terrain of your country is a violation we have not ourselves felt. Were we to - particularly in the context of our being perpetually surrounded by enemies (and yes, obviously I accept that ours was 'the original sin') - then we might feel we had the right to go and get them back - and dismantle the organisation that took them.

I must say, it's a surprising situation to be in to find oneself cast as some sort of apologist for the "s***y little country" of Israel (in the French ambassador's immortal words). Under Netanyahu, the country has been a rogue actor par excellence. And personally, as a Labour member, I think Starmer should announce a free vote on a ceasefire - if I were an M.P. I'd vote for the futile gesture it is.

Humanitarian pauses/aid, yes; international law, naturally. Nevertheless, to demand a country relinquish its right to repatriate its citizens when they have been taken the way they were, I'm not sure that's our place. From that position, despite the awful pain and suffering it entails when the country doing the repatriating is Israel, the reluctance to call for a ceasefire is comprehensible.
 
coluka said:
Chamberlain ring any bells?

You ask ???'s about Hamas walking through, sounds like you like a conspiracy theory, maybe your judgement has an in built bias? Who knows we all have bias to some degree

Terror groups love a cosy chat and a cup of tea, so JC tells us, guaranteed success. If only governments knew it was easy peasy.

You choose to believe some journalism as you quote it, do you always check its truth and if so what metrics do you choose to ensure its accuracy?

Anyway, time for bed g'night, sleep well... something innocent Israelis and Palestinians can't do, even arguably in the UK now sadly 😥
Click to expand...

Journalism and justifying research / reporting means using validated evidence / data.
"Conspiracy theory" is a way of dismissing evidence which contradicts a dominant narrative - it doesnt disprove or question the evidence.
The first victim of war is truth: so never believe the propaganda. Ommission is propaganda as much as fake "evidence".

An example of denial by the dominant narrative was Julian Assange [Wikileakes] Evidence of Americans murdering a journalist, children and civilians from a helicopter in Iraq: Called a conspiracy and a lie by US DOD it was proven completely true. Similarly - Edward Snowden`s whistleblowing evidence of mass surveilence and intrusion into ordinary citizens by U.S Military Intelligence / CIA / FBI and Chelsea Manning`s revelations - all since proven correct.

Julian Assange still confined in a British Top Security jail for telling the truth.
This sends a message to all journalists to "shut up" and follow the official line - or else.
Incidentally, journalists are being singled out by Israeli high tech and have been murdered. The last bombing campaign on Gaza focused first on Comms / Media centre - which was destroyed. "Truth" undermines the narrative.

 
equaliser said:
My point concerned the hostages. Having one's fellow citizens seized from the terrain of your country is a violation we have not ourselves felt. Were we to - particularly in the context of our being perpetually surrounded by enemies (and yes, obviously I accept that ours was 'the original sin') - then we might feel we had the right to go and get them back - and dismantle the organisation that took them.
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I think they absolutely have the right to go and get them back.

I'm not convinced Netanyahu has getting them back as his top priority mind and while I'm certainly no expert, and appreciate there are no easy solutions, I'm pretty sure bombing and murdering civilians isn't the best way to go about it.
 
r00fie1 said:
Journalism and justifying research / reporting means using validated evidence / data.
"Conspiracy theory" is a way of dismissing evidence which contradicts a dominant narrative - it doesnt disprove or question the evidence.
The first victim of war is truth: so never believe the propaganda. Ommission is propaganda as much as fake "evidence".

An example of denial by the dominant narrative was Julian Assange [Wikileakes] Evidence of Americans murdering a journalist, children and civilians from a helicopter in Iraq: Called a conspiracy and a lie by US DOD it was proven completely true. Similarly - Edward Snowden`s whistleblowing evidence of mass surveilence and intrusion into ordinary citizens by U.S Military Intelligence / CIA / FBI and Chelsea Manning`s revelations - all since proven correct.

Julian Assange still confined in a British Top Security jail for telling the truth.
This sends a message to all journalists to "shut up" and follow the official line - or else.
Incidentally, journalists are being singled out by Israeli high tech and have been murdered. The last bombing campaign on Gaza focused first on Comms / Media centre - which was destroyed. "Truth" undermines the narrative.

Click to expand...
The truth is always subjective to a degree. E.g. You and I witness the same game of football from different angles in a stadium, we along with everyone else present see the same thing, but not necessarily arrive at the same conclusion, we speak our truths on here, others then add to the distortions of what we thought we saw. I am not fully up to date on Assange tbf so can’t wholly comment on his personal situation you raise, but on the wider context of telling the truth, in lots of cases, it does not mean you are not guilty of breaking the law of the land or your account is right or wrong in its entirety.

Having once signed The Official Secrets Act myself, I appreciate what damage governments can do if they so wish in the supposed national interest, and I appreciate some things can and should be exposed and journalists walk a fine line sometimes in deciding what is in the public interest and I dare say even in some ‘friendly’ countries put their lives at risk, but I would rather be a resident of the UK than the USA or Russia, China were I to fall foul of such laws. Hacking is a crime nonetheless and extradition laws here thankfully do have a human rights switch, so death penalties can be avoided at least and our judiciary are in the main honest.
 
r00fie1 said:
Journalism and justifying research / reporting means using validated evidence / data.
"Conspiracy theory" is a way of dismissing evidence which contradicts a dominant narrative - it doesnt disprove or question the evidence.
The first victim of war is truth: so never believe the propaganda. Ommission is propaganda as much as fake "evidence".

An example of denial by the dominant narrative was Julian Assange [Wikileakes] Evidence of Americans murdering a journalist, children and civilians from a helicopter in Iraq: Called a conspiracy and a lie by US DOD it was proven completely true. Similarly - Edward Snowden`s whistleblowing evidence of mass surveilence and intrusion into ordinary citizens by U.S Military Intelligence / CIA / FBI and Chelsea Manning`s revelations - all since proven correct.

Julian Assange still confined in a British Top Security jail for telling the truth.
This sends a message to all journalists to "shut up" and follow the official line - or else.
Incidentally, journalists are being singled out by Israeli high tech and have been murdered. The last bombing campaign on Gaza focused first on Comms / Media centre - which was destroyed. "Truth" undermines the narrative.

Click to expand...

I see you've missed my reply.

You're very right, misinformation is everywhere. Yet, from reading what you said, you've either suggested that Israel, via the use of Apachi helicopters, tanks and infantry, either let Hamas kill its citizens or (according to that twitter post I mentioned) activity killed its own citizens.

So, what were you suggesting in your post? And where is it you are getting your information from to form your opinion?
 
coluka said:
The truth is always subjective to a degree. E.g. You and I witness the same game of football from different angles in a stadium, we along with everyone else present see the same thing, but not necessarily arrive at the same conclusion, we speak our truths on here, others then add to the distortions of what we thought we saw. I am not fully up to date on Assange tbf so can’t wholly comment on his personal situation you raise, but on the wider context of telling the truth, in lots of cases, it does not mean you are not guilty of breaking the law of the land or your account is right or wrong in its entirety.

Having once signed The Official Secrets Act myself, I appreciate what damage governments can do if they so wish in the supposed national interest, and I appreciate some things can and should be exposed and journalists walk a fine line sometimes in deciding what is in the public interest and I dare say even in some ‘friendly’ countries put their lives at risk, but I would rather be a resident of the UK than the USA or Russia, China were I to fall foul of such laws. Hacking is a crime nonetheless and extradition laws here thankfully do have a human rights switch, so death penalties can be avoided at least and our judiciary are in the main honest.
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Me too.
OSA. Me and you obviously valuable assets to some one.
Watching football doesnt equate to bombing innocent civilians.
The current blanket lie is HAMAS! HAMAS! HAMAS! for a process which is [honestly] the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.
Israel lies through its teeth. Its up to those of us who know difference to get that out there.
The issue is that "media" are owned by the same Oligarchs and billionaires who support supplying the bombs to murder civilians in Gaza - and the West Bank.
Anyway, I think you and I are on different ends of the same playing field.

ps: I`ll tell you the secrets I know if you tell me yours. I wont tell anybody....honest.(y)
 
r00fie1 said:
Me too.
OSA. Me and you obviously valuable assets to some one.
Watching football doesnt equate to bombing innocent civilians.
The current blanket lie is HAMAS! HAMAS! HAMAS! for a process which is [honestly] the Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.
Israel lies through its teeth. Its up to those of us who know difference to get that out there.
The issue is that "media" are owned by the same Oligarchs and billionaires who support supplying the bombs to murder civilians in Gaza - and the West Bank.
Anyway, I think you and I are on different ends of the same playing field.

ps: I`ll tell you the secrets I know if you tell me yours. I wont tell anybody....honest.(y)
Click to expand...
Of course watching football doesn’t equate to bombing individuals, I am unsure why you made that leap, it was merely a point about what anyone observes and reports on may not always be fully accurate even though they may believe it is.

Undoubtedly Israel through Netanyahu appear to be overstepping the mark by a long way and if all is as it appears then they need to be made accountable under International law, I am sceptical he/they ever will be. However, Hamas are also a terror cell that slaughtered innocents too and need to be dealt with and removed. The how should not be to the detriment of innocent Palestinians, but it is, the seemingly passing off of child deaths, let alone adults as collateral damage in a just war is clearly unacceptable. However, the Israelis should not solely bear responsibility as Hamas awoke the monster by slaughtering innocents and their lives matter as much as a Palestinians should do and deliberately hide amongst innocents using them as human shields, that too is despicable. It is a problem without solution so long as those involved will never accept the right to each states right to exist and self determination. Even were that ever agreed there will always be a group wanting to undermine the peace for ideological, religious reason, or through bad actors like Iran wanting to stop accords like the Saudis were about to sign with Israel just before the Hamas attack, timing eh!!

P.S. My state secrets would curl the hair on Mick Lynch’s head, so best remain classified for now and probably will still beyond their 30yr passing 👍 🤐
 
coluka said:
Well, there was this guy…

View attachment 67024


So spineless he won‘t even say Hamas are a terror group
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Not very bright are you? Probably the only leader who ever stood up to the establishment and was destroyed by all the world media, including a Jewish right wing funded campaign. Let’s not upset them hey? Didn’t the critical part of your brain even register a tiny bit of scepticism when REACH PLC - establishment- (gazette gnarf gnarf) shamelessly ran a hit piece on him with a Chubby Brown headline that screamed “Why I f#cking hate Jeremy Corbyn”. Wasn’t that enough to raise your awareness above your dragging knuckles? They could have ran a piece showing Boris Johnson as a back bencher, doing a speech on why the NHS shouldn’t be seen as special, basically, putting it into UK consciousness that his billionaire chums would back door privatise it. I’m just happy I don’t choose to live in a false construct, it’s lonely, but it means I don’t get to come back 🇵🇸
 
coluka said:
Of course watching football doesn’t equate to bombing individuals, I am unsure why you made that leap, it was merely a point about what anyone observes and reports on may not always be fully accurate even though they may believe it is.

Undoubtedly Israel through Netanyahu appear to be overstepping the mark by a long way and if all is as it appears then they need to be made accountable under International law, I am sceptical he/they ever will be. However, Hamas are also a terror cell that slaughtered innocents too and need to be dealt with and removed. The how should not be to the detriment of innocent Palestinians, but it is, the seemingly passing off of child deaths, let alone adults as collateral damage in a just war is clearly unacceptable. However, the Israelis should not solely bear responsibility as Hamas awoke the monster by slaughtering innocents and their lives matter as much as a Palestinians should do and deliberately hide amongst innocents using them as human shields, that too is despicable. It is a problem without solution so long as those involved will never accept the right to each states right to exist and self determination. Even were that ever agreed there will always be a group wanting to undermine the peace for ideological, religious reason, or through bad actors like Iran wanting to stop accords like the Saudis were about to sign with Israel just before the Hamas attack, timing eh!!

P.S. My state secrets would curl the hair on Mick Lynch’s head, so best remain classified for now and probably will still beyond their 30yr passing 👍 🤐
Click to expand...
:love:
 
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