No outstanding teams in this World Cup

Andy_W said:
I think the standard is evening out, the "worse" teams are far better than previous "worse" teams, which is making the "better" teams look worse.
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absolutely this! I said this before the competition on here. Stated that the gap was shrinking, I think it was in a discussion about Southgate and how people dismiss his world cup record because we thrash 'minnows'. But if we look back at previous world cups we had draws and narrow wins vs minnows. We thrash them now, which I think shows where we are, we are very close to pushing to be number one in the world I think James at RB, a CB and the emergence of another CF would move us up to challenge as favourites for the euros and next world cup
 
Think Brazil and France are probably the best two teams, also if Brazil had been a bit more humble and professional they would have got to the final, also feel like France have just being doing enough and have another couple of gears they could use if they really need to
 
As per usual England failed to deliver at the final hurdle. Always the bridesmaid never the bride. Another two years to get our hopes up ( to probably be let down again.) I hope not, but how many times have we been here?

Morocco have shone like a beacon and excelled all expectations. That put a big smile on so many faces and will leave a positive memory.
 
Frozen Horse said:
You almost sound like you don't like football. This is what following any team is like, isn't it?
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Yes it is, but we England fans more than most 'assume' or raise expectations far too high that we are going to win it each time. Most fans of their clubs don't make such assumptions. Maybe this is why we never win anything? too much pressure on the players and allowing ourselves to suffer delusions of grandeur.
 
Mountain Climber said:
Yes it is, but we England fans more than most 'assume' or raise expectations far too high that we are going to win it each time. Most fans of their clubs don't make such assumptions. Maybe this is why we never win anything? too much pressure on the players and allowing ourselves to suffer delusions of grandeur
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The French and Argentine fans have of course had absolutely no expectation of winning the tournament, and there's been no pressure on their players.
 
TeaCider said:
The French and Argentine fans have of course had absolutely no expectation of winning the tournament, and there's been no pressure on their players.
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They are confident in the knowledge that they probably won't bottle it at the last minute. They see more gold stars above their badges because they can usually run the course. We cannot. Maybe they also possess an arrogance that helps them attain success? They know they have players who can usually perform under pressure, on the world stage.
 
Mountain Climber said:
They are confident in the knowledge that they probably won't bottle it at the last minute. They see more gold stars above their badges because they can usually run the course. We cannot. Maybe they also possess an arrogance that helps them attain success? They know they have players who can usually perform under pressure, on the world stage.
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Argentina haven't won a World Cup in 36 years, almost none of their players were born when they last did.

Until last year, they'd not won a trophy since 1993.

The fans were just as expectant before that Copa America success.

It's nonsense pseudo psychology to say that England fans believing England can win a World Cup is the reason that they haven't in 55 years.
 
I don't think England "bottled it" we gave France a very close game that could have gone either way. I don't think I've seen a team who we should fear? We have some very talented players who will be (hopefully) playing for us for several tournaments yet. I don't believe we ever "expect" to win. Perhaps we did in 1970, I do remember the expectation and the press coverage (Bobby Moore arrested in Bogota, Esso World Cup coins, "Back Home" etc.) but since then we have approached the WC with hope rather than expectation.

Oh and it is only 18 months to the Euros and we get to do it all again. What japes :)
 
Andy_W said:
I think the standard is evening out, the "worse" teams are far better than previous "worse" teams, which is making the "better" teams look worse.

Also think it's a bit more of a team game now, less stand-out individuals and the lesser players contributing more.
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Yes, very much so on the team game aspect.

Think that coincides with the end of the cycle of a lot of superstars like Messi, Ronaldo, Lewa, Muller, even Neymar who are much past their best now. So the big names have been hyped but it’s not really been a tournament - or a game anymore - for superstar players, apart from young Kylian. In fact carrying an old superstar has hurt teams more than its helped, Argentina aside.

Morocco and Japan in particular impressed because of their relentless work rate, team spirit and positive pacey football. Sort of like, it’s better to be Bielsa’s Leeds with 11 average players going full blast rather than Man United last season with Ronaldo up front.
 
Our national team is in a healthy place at present. We have some good young players who will be the staple of the team for the next 4 or 5 tournaments at least.

I'm still unsure as to whether Southgate is the right man to lead us forward but he and this team have done a great job at reconnecting the fans and the national team, as it had reached a stage where there was pure apathy before Southgate took over.

We were unfortunate to have come against France in the quarters. If we'd come up against most other teams in the tournament there's a decent chance we'd have gotten through, but we actually gave France a good game and some would even argue we were the better team.

I think mentality will sadly always hold us back though from going that one step further. Kane 9 times out of 10 buries that penalty but the pressure was just too much for him.
 
Mountain Climber said:
Yes it is, but we England fans more than most 'assume' or raise expectations far too high that we are going to win it each time. Most fans of their clubs don't make such assumptions. Maybe this is why we never win anything? too much pressure on the players and allowing ourselves to suffer delusions of grandeur.
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I don't think we do. Look at the world cup predictions thread (The time is almost here - 2022 World Cup predictions: 🏆 Champions - 👀 The dark horses - 📉 Biggest underachievers - ⚽️ Top scorer): not one person predicting an England win. Plenty for France, Brazil, Argentina and even some for Germany and Belgium, but not one for England.

Mountain Climber said:
They are confident in the knowledge that they probably won't bottle it at the last minute.
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I guarantee that one of them will lose on Sunday, no matter how confident they feel. That's the nature of the competition: only one team can win. For me, though, "bottling it" implies that a team should win, expects to win and is clear favourites to win, but loses. Being beaten by a team of higher quality is not bottling it.

As far as England goes, I think we're quite good at talking up our chances after they've passed. No one talked about the Beckham to Gerrard era as "the golden generation" until it was in well into decline. Plenty said we had no chance at the lst world cup and Euros, but suddenly claimed the tournaments were "gift wrapped" for us once we'd been knocked out of them.

Part of it is an indulgent wallow in self pity, and the other part is just petulant frustration.
 
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Mountain Climber said:
Yes it is, but we England fans more than most 'assume' or raise expectations far too high that we are going to win it each time. Most fans of their clubs don't make such assumptions. Maybe this is why we never win anything? too much pressure on the players and allowing ourselves to suffer delusions of grandeur.
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If we are honest most of the time the fans/press build us up, it's rediculous for them to do so. The only times we have had one of the best squads in my life were this 2022 competition and 2006 when we had 8 world class players (Ashley Cole, Terry, Rio, Lampard, Gerrard, Beckham, Rooney and Owen) largely in their prime, supported by other top players like Sol Campell, Joe Cole, Hargreaves, Crouch and Carrick. That squad was probably the best we've ever taken to a world cup and I include '66 in that.

This 2022 squad played well, ran the world champs all the way, who needed a massive slice of luck (first france goal), then a second helping of luck (Kane pen not given), then they vomited that luck down the toilet to make space for a third slice (Kane pen miss), to get through. It was small margins and details and non-controllable elements that cost us. If we approach the next competition with the same squad, management and a touch more experience and belief we will be in the mx to win.
 
Mountain Climber said:
They are confident in the knowledge that they probably won't bottle it at the last minute. They see more gold stars above their badges because they can usually run the course. We cannot. Maybe they also possess an arrogance that helps them attain success? They know they have players who can usually perform under pressure, on the world stage.
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so they have better players, so maybe we should stop expecting that we win, and accept that right now we are about the 5th best team in the world
 
parmoboy said:
I think mentality will sadly always hold us back though from going that one step further. Kane 9 times out of 10 buries that penalty but the pressure was just too much for him.
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I think there is a monkey on our back, being the underdog in a huge game and winning. If/when we do that, we go on and win a trophy for me.
 
BoroMart said:
I think there is a monkey on our back, being the underdog in a huge game and winning. If/when we do that, we go on and win a trophy for me.
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It felt as though we'd done that when we beat Germany but in hindsight that team was a shadow of some of the great German teams of the past.
 
BoroMart said:
so they have better players, so maybe we should stop expecting that we win, and accept that right now we are about the 5th best team in the world
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Many predicted that we wouldn't even make it out of the group. Let's not forget we came into the tournament in terrible form.

We played some good football, scored plenty of goals and only conceded 4. Unfortunately we came up against the world champions in the quarters and narrowly lost out, but we didn't disgrace ourselves.
 
parmoboy said:
Many predicted that we wouldn't even make it out of the group. Let's not forget we came into the tournament in terrible form.

We played some good football, scored plenty of goals and only conceded 4. Unfortunately we came up against the world champions in the quarters and narrowly lost out, but we didn't disgrace ourselves.
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who predicted we wouldnt get of the group it was a really easy group on paper and in reality.
 
Football is an unpredictable sport. Knock out football even more so.

I've not seen anyone criticising England's overall performance v France. So not sure how they can be said to have choked or bottled it. It came down to two big moments in the end. Their first goal, which shouldn't have stood. And Kane's penalty miss. The finest of margins.

Easier to predict a league winner than a cup winner for this very reason. You get unlucky or make a mistake once in a cup and it's game over. I don't care how good a team is, it happens to every side on occasion.

In a league it still happens but it's obviously not fatal. These things will tend to balance out over a season and the best side will still win.

You usually need a bit of luck to win a cup. A penalty shoot out win, a refereeing decision going your way, a mistake from the opposition. All you can control is giving yourself the best chance to get lucky.

France are the best side but they still needed a refereeing decision to go in their favour and a penalty miss from one of the world's best.

For plenty of tournaments you can say England just haven't been good enough. But I don't think you can for this one, big moments just didn't go their way. That's football though, that's part of the appeal. The best side doesn't always win.
 
parmoboy said:
Many predicted that we wouldn't even make it out of the group. Let's not forget we came into the tournament in terrible form.
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some people definitely did but as the great urban philosopher Super Hans once said "People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazi's you can't trust people". I always felt that we would make at least the quarters, then it was a matter of fine margins. I wish the margins had gone the other way, but that's football
 
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