They have both, which not only has it positives for them, but dictates how the opposition defend
Luton and Sheff United last year were hardly awash with beautiful footballers.
Pace Pace Pace
- Thread starter Duffman
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They have both, which not only has it positives for them, but dictates how the opposition defend
Luton and Sheff United last year were hardly awash with beautiful footballers.
Frozen Horse
Well-known member
I'm not sure either were over-blessed with pace either. Height and strength, yes, but I rarely hear fans championing that as the way to go. Who were the flyers in those teams?
In fairness to SU, they arguably had more skill last season than this: Ndiaye, Doyle and McAtee were probably their 3 most skilful players: 2 were on loan and one was sold. Another lesson on what can go wrong if your best players are loanees.
Luton's a strange one: I suspect they had more skill than they showed last season: certainly they've played some more attractive football in the PL than they did in the championship. I think the truth was their new manager was a pragmatist, and chose not to change too much too fast. That didn't mean the players didn't necessarily have skill, but as Mr Rooney has shown at Brum, it can be a fatal error to go in and impose new principles straight away, no matter how much you believe in them.
Pace gives you more opportunities. Other attributes don't have to be as good if you have more opportunities. Looking at our 2 strikers as a great example. It might take Lath 3 chances to score 1 where it only takes Coburn 2 chances but he gets those chances because of pace. Not only does he get more opportunities but the opportunities he gets are better. If you play a through ball to him he can be free of the defender so he's shooting without pressure from the defender where Coburn is alongside the defender and being jostled while attempting his shots. Midfielders can play a ball into space and the fastest player gets it. That's never going to be Coburn. It's often better to have a fast player that isn't a good footballer than a good footballer who isn't fast. Defending is the same. If positioning is poor a fast player can make up for it by covering more space where a slow player has to be perfect all the time.
We seem to not only lack players with real pace (Jones, Lath and Bangura excluded) but the other players are slower than average as well. Howson and Barlaser can't keep up with a moderate jog from most players so when teams break against us we are unable to catch-up to recover which gives the opposition more time and space on the ball.
You don't have to be lightning fast but having pace as well as other attributes makes things a lot easier.
We seem to not only lack players with real pace (Jones, Lath and Bangura excluded) but the other players are slower than average as well. Howson and Barlaser can't keep up with a moderate jog from most players so when teams break against us we are unable to catch-up to recover which gives the opposition more time and space on the ball.
You don't have to be lightning fast but having pace as well as other attributes makes things a lot easier.
Nero
Well-known member
When we’ve struggled it’s because our passing has been too slow and inaccurate meaning teams can defend in a low block easily. Last season our passing in the final third was at times electric. All quick interchange and one two passing. That is a big difference.
Nero
Well-known member
When we’ve struggled it’s because our passing has been too slow and inaccurate meaning teams can defend in a low block easily. Last season our passing in the final third was at times electric. All quick interchange and one two passing. That is a big difference.
I'd definitely agree about Edwards at Luton, signing Ross Barkley looks a very clever move.
Point I'm getting at is that this season that we're a pretty one paced squad , predominantly in the back six positions.
Losing the ball in transition, highlights the issue like the goal yesterday.
Our best run of the season came with Crooks and Coburn and Jones playing.
Of course pace or athleticism/ physicality isn't a magic bullet, but it's a factor in the grind of the Championship.
SilentProf
Well-known member
This is a good explanation. Raw pace scares teams and means you can get into dangerous positions with fewer defenders to deal with. It means you don’t need to be as good technically or tactically to score goals. It’s also much easier to significantly improve technique and tactical awareness than speed and acceleration.
festa5
Well-known member
You can say pretty much the same about technique/ability. Apart from it's more true of technique than it is of pace or other physical attributes.
A striker that can control a ball with one touch instead of three has way more time to get his shot off.
A defender that reads the game perfectly doesn't need to recover position or put covering tackles in.
Technique/ability compensates for lack of pace far more so than the other way round.
Plenty of world class players have had limited pace over the years.
I can't think of any that had limited ability but were just really quick.
Ummm Nsue had pace, Ramirez had pace, Stuani had pace
festa5
Well-known member
I know what you mean, but I'd say it's more about athleticism than pace for that position is what we're lacking. Probably need more of a middle distance runner than a sprinter.
A Boateng type would be amazing, someone who just doesn't stop running.
festa5
Well-known member
I said genuinely quick. If that's your bar then Forss has pace, Silvera has pace, Dijksteel has pace etc. So nothing to worry about then eh?
And there were several players in that squad quicker than Stuani, a bizarre example.
Inoffthebar
Active member
Yes it should be considered but it’s not the be all and end all. Many of our better players in the Championship haven’t been blessed with lightning pace - a few examples from our promotion winning team - Gaston, Stuani, Nugent… Tav and Rogers more recently.
Maybe if the balls in behind were of better quality (ie Gaston) the receiver wouldn’t need to be right on the limit?
That goes without saying but you can't compare World Class players and championship players. At the highest level the best players have both. There are minimum standards that a player needs. I'm not suggesting we go scouting the athletics team instead of the football team but a player with adequate skills and high pace beats one with adequate pace and high skills. Pace allows a poorer player to overcome their technical deficiencies.
It's not the be all and end all. Better players will be quick enough and will have better technical skills. We can't afford to buy a defender that reads the game perfectly etc. We can buy championship players and most of them have many weaknesses to their game and pace is a common one.
It all depends on the way you play as well. Under Karanka we didn't need pace. We moved the ball around, got our team high up the pitch and pressed and probed for openings. We defended very deep and made it difficult for pace to get through by restricting space. We don't play like that with Carrick. We play a game where we get the ball up the pitch quickly, win the ball high up the pitch etc. We were far better at it last season when we had Archer, Ramsey, Akpom, Forss as our front 4 who all had pace than we are when we have Coburn, Crooks and Greenwood in there and a large part of them being better was their pace.
BoroMart
Well-known member
When we played chelsea in the first game, we had Jones and started with Lath. Chelsea learned pretty quickly that they couldn't press us high with the full team, they couldn't condense everything into our half of the field when we had the ball. Jones and Lath frightened them (well until kicked out of the game).
When we played away and both players were missing, we had no pace, they were able to push their CBs up to the half way line knowing they could cover any ball over the top, this allowed them to commit their midfield to a full press and condense us, that made playing out much more difficult and caused the mistakes.
The gaps between the chelsea lines got smaller, because we had no pace up top, this made every pass 10% harder to make, and more likely the receiver would be under pressure straight away.
Now, sure, that was against a 1 billion pound team, but it's the same principle against a championship side, just slightly less jeopardy.
For our passing game to work, we have to stop the opposition squeezing the pitch, we need that pace threat, to get the opposition CBs to drop and cover the space behind them, in turn that will cause the opposition CDMs to drop a little and not leave a massive gap to their CBs, that gives our midfielders more time to receive the ball and turn and gets us up the pitch.
I like coburn but there is no place for him in a side that play this way. We need pace, we need another challenge to Lath in the summer with pace.
When we played away and both players were missing, we had no pace, they were able to push their CBs up to the half way line knowing they could cover any ball over the top, this allowed them to commit their midfield to a full press and condense us, that made playing out much more difficult and caused the mistakes.
The gaps between the chelsea lines got smaller, because we had no pace up top, this made every pass 10% harder to make, and more likely the receiver would be under pressure straight away.
Now, sure, that was against a 1 billion pound team, but it's the same principle against a championship side, just slightly less jeopardy.
For our passing game to work, we have to stop the opposition squeezing the pitch, we need that pace threat, to get the opposition CBs to drop and cover the space behind them, in turn that will cause the opposition CDMs to drop a little and not leave a massive gap to their CBs, that gives our midfielders more time to receive the ball and turn and gets us up the pitch.
I like coburn but there is no place for him in a side that play this way. We need pace, we need another challenge to Lath in the summer with pace.
BoroMart
Well-known member
I agree, but we could definitely do with adding a a late run goal threat to the side from CM, seems a long time since we've had that
Frozen Horse
Well-known member
No one is arguing pace is a bad thing, or without its use, or that a team needs some quick players. I'll go as far as agreeing a lack of genuine pace up front yesterday had a negative impact on our performance.
However, I feel the arguments it favour of pace here is that it is a substitute for quality: a poor ball can be made into a good ball if a player has enough pace etc. Probably true, but I'd rather have the player who played good balls than the athlete who can reach bad passes. We should prioritises skill, not pace, wen we're making new signings.
Despite skill beating speed, I don't think pace comes much/any cheaper. It's so obvious when a player has genuine pace: any Tom, d*ck or Harry can spot it, so pacy players tend to receive a lot of hype and attention, which of course drives prices up.
Height and strength have always been the cheaper substitutes for skill, but I don't think anyone wants to see us go down that route.
However, I feel the arguments it favour of pace here is that it is a substitute for quality: a poor ball can be made into a good ball if a player has enough pace etc. Probably true, but I'd rather have the player who played good balls than the athlete who can reach bad passes. We should prioritises skill, not pace, wen we're making new signings.
Despite skill beating speed, I don't think pace comes much/any cheaper. It's so obvious when a player has genuine pace: any Tom, d*ck or Harry can spot it, so pacy players tend to receive a lot of hype and attention, which of course drives prices up.
Height and strength have always been the cheaper substitutes for skill, but I don't think anyone wants to see us go down that route.
festa5
Well-known member
Agree you need a pacey threat to prevent that happening, but don't think that's exclusive to the way we play. Applies to all sides. We'd have got penned in regardless.
And I'm not sure about Coburn, he's played very well in some big wins this season. Suggesting he can play in a side that plays the way we do. The pace doesn't have to come from the centre forward.
Although I'd agree I think Carrick probably prefers a quick striker more often than not.
BoroMart
Well-known member
It's important to the way we play, because we need to get the ball the central midfielders with time and space to turn. that's how we progress up the pitch usually. Agree the pace doesn't have to come from the CF, Jones has provided it for us too. But two pace threats, really force the opposition back.