Religious education in schools
- Thread starter Quicksilvera
- Start date
So my mention of Greek democracy was to merely point out that democracies came from political regimes that had worship as central to their lives. There will be modern day slaves not far from where I am now in the UK. Slavery is an expression of power over another persons life, and 'democratic states' can enforce\allow slavery just as readily as theocratic ones. Christianity was mocked (by those worshipping the Roman Emperor) as a religion that welcomed slaves and women and children in its earliest times, so it was not used to keep the masses compliant. They had crucifiction, floggings and so on for that. A 'component of spiritual enquiry' is a strange turn of phrase, but all of us are built to worship, and can uncover truth, but as children we must be formed, otherwise how on earth do we grow? My God is not an impregnable, otherworldly Deity, he was born, lived, died and rose again to save me and all mankind. The 'holy book' is his love letter to me, and everyone, explaining spiritual truths about how much He was willing to do to save me, no matter how often I reject Him.
Nero
Well-known member
Humans enslaved themselves to agriculture and civilisation was a consequence of that. Amassing nomadic people in mass numbers, meant some type of control was needed. Humans have always told stories and believe in myths. Religion is the ultimate story and myth.
italianjob
Well-known member
Nothing to do with bashing. It's just a story/book that's had a few edits along the years and some people feel they have to live their life by what's in it. I do find that strange to base your life on a story.
Look at all of these daft Yanks saying God sent Trump to be president of the US and they wholeheartedly believe it. Maybe that's one of the million reasons I can't take it seriously.
To answer the original question, I've no idea how the universe started and I'm happy to admit that. I don't need to put some fantasy in place to try and explain it.
I also try and follow/understand the likes of Prof. Brian Cox, and although what he says fascinates me I still don't really understand it and will also admit to that - I'm not just accepting scientific explanations as the one and only answer.
Anyway, I'm a Jedi. Do you believe me or do I have to provide proof or evidence? Or is it just made up?
Well the evidence for Paleolithic worship is sparse, but shows that religion existed before Neolithic (i.e. agricultural) times. I agree that religion is the ultimate story, but I think we may disagree about it being myth. For example I would say that the Creation stories in Genesis present the work of God symbolically, but they reveal truth about Gods creation being 'ex nihilo' "from nothing", and Adam being formed from the dust of the ground emphasises that Man is created differently from the rest of the visible world (and particularly from the animals). Myth could be used as a word to describe the non-literal parts of the creation account, but unfortunately in this scientific age "myth" has also come to be equated with 'a falsely held belief' so I would not describe the parts of the Bible written in this genre as "myth" or "mythic" in case it would mislead someone to believe that they were not meant to express truth.
Nero
Well-known member
What I do appreciate about religion is it gives people something other than themselves to think about. That is a positive without doubt.
Totally understand and accept your approach, but it’s not for me.
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Laughing
Well-known member
However I never said any of that. 8m fact quite the opposite.Nothing to do with bashing. It's just a story/book that's had a few edits along the years and some people feel they have to live their life by what's in it. I do find that strange to base your life on a story.
Look at all of these daft Yanks saying God sent Trump to be president of the US and they wholeheartedly believe it. Maybe that's one of the million reasons I can't take it seriously.
To answer the original question, I've no idea how the universe started and I'm happy to admit that. I don't need to put some fantasy in place to try and explain it.
I also try and follow/understand the likes of Prof. Brian Cox, and although what he says fascinates me I still don't really understand it and will also admit to that - I'm not just accepting scientific explanations as the one and only answer.
Anyway, I'm a Jedi. Do you believe me or do I have to provide proof or evidence? Or is it just made up?
Neither the bible nor any other religious text tells us anything about creation that we can verify. This in and of itself does not rule out a creator because science has nothing worthwhile to say about creation either.
One day it might but it's also fairly likely that science will never explain creation.
However, folks are very quick to dismiss the idea that there is a creator.
It was this I said we don't know. And we don't.
Osboro
Well-known member
I noticed you didn't actually state you weren't a Priest.
If your not, your definitely what my sainted Mother would disparagingly refer to as a " Holy Joe", some one she would avoid at any cost.
If you are a Priest I do feel for you, having gone though the horrific seminary system.
I don't want to convince you ,or take your faith, I would just ask that you keep your psychological crutch to yourself and stop trying to suggest I too need a crutch to stand up and walk straight .
Definitely not a priest in the sense you mean of a secular priest, but 'holy joe' probably covers it
All the Baptised share in Jesus Christs ministry of priest, prophet and king. And the reason I'm "sharing my crutch" is that someone on this thread made a point about RE in schools that I responded to (iirc), and asking me to keep it to myself is a request I will not be acquiescing to. I'm not suggesting that you need a crutch, just pointing out that you do have a faith, even if you disagree with calling it by that name, and you do worship, even if you don't recognise that that is what you are doing. If you find this upsetting I suggest you just stop responding to my posts.
Gunslinger
Well-known member
We know where homo sapiens evolved from and every other animal for that matter, we are animals and primates and were all related, just extracting humans from the biological tree of life and replacing it with magically created by a sky wizard from dust hypothesis completely falsifies the record and changes the history of human civilization into some magical fairytale
Hence why i said evolution disproves all religions, because it explains how we got here, you have a magical story that explains our origins that simply cannot co-exist with modern
understanding of evolution, geology and cosmology in every way possible
If you want to suggest the possibility of a magical being, fine, but as soon as you reference the bible or any other modern religion its too easy to falsify
I mean, i can assume you think evolution is BS and we were created 3000 years ago, so please offer your explanation of the fossil record and how we can trace
back our lineage to hundreds of thousands of years ago by simply digging up stuff
Well I must have explained my approach badly cos if I'd explained it well you'd be wanting to join
All the best Nero"Slavery is an expression of power over another persons life, and 'democratic states' can enforce\allow slavery just as readily as theocratic ones."
If you'd actually lived in a theocratic state, I guarantee you wouldn't be so complacent.
"Christianity was mocked (by those worshipping the Roman Emperor) as a religion that welcomed slaves and women and children in its earliest times, so it was not used to keep the masses compliant."
It was sure used for such after Roman times - par excellence!
"but all of us are built to worship, and can uncover truth, but as children we must be formed, otherwise how on earth do we grow?"
I agree with this, up to a point. It's what I meant by 'a component of spiritual enquiry'. Put another way, I don't need a religion to worship God as I understand it. In fact, I see religion as a hindrance to true revelation. Religions have something to tell us, certainly, a part in the conversation. That's a different thing to enforcing orthodoxy (and sowing division) by underwriting faith schools.
"My God is not an impregnable, otherworldly Deity, he was born, lived, died and rose again to save me and all mankind."
The Muslim god certainly is. And as for your fella, I'm glad you feel he does all that for you. But much of mankind seems impervious to his mission. What about if I reject him permanently, finally, in perpetuity? What do have to say to me then? I suspect it won't be nice. You see despite my commitment to live a good and ethical life, religion still wants my ass to submit. The velvet glove always conceals the mailed fist, in this case via the threat of eternal damnation. No pressure sinners...
Arguably we are a theocracy, in the sense that, along with Iran, we're the only countries where religious leaders have an automatic right to sit in the legislature (26 C of E bishops in the Lords). Unlike Iran, it's not clear that our religious leaders believe in God.
Glover_elbow
Well-known member
I am wondering if holy joe is newy in disguise having a lend of us allDefinitely not a priest in the sense you mean of a secular priest, but 'holy joe' probably covers it
Gunslinger
Well-known member
Yes, we don't know a magic wizard exists or not, just like we don't know dragons and unicorns don't exist either
I suppose we base our understanding of the universe on what is observable and testable not an endless series of speculative guesses at what can and cannot possibly exist
The thread was about religions, and we know they are all man made claptrap
Laughing
Well-known member
Interesting take. You can't make an argument against a creator, so you make childish comments.
We base what we know on the observable, what we don't know we create and test theories. . Let's stick with the observable for the moment. We observe that almost 96% of the matter in the universe doesn't interact at all with the physical matter in the universe. We can't see it, we can't measure it. We have no idea what it is or what it does. It's not that we have theories about it, we don't. Most of the scientist at the LHC assumed we would detect dark matter and dark energy. We have failed. Our best theory is.. We don't know.
Let's turn to other things we know we don't know. How chemistry turned to bio-chemistry. We don't know, we can't recreate it and it's not for want of trying. We can create the conditions on early earth, we can't turn chemistry into bio-chemistry.
Lets turn to how the universe began. You probably think the big-bang is our best theory on how the universe started. Somneone who knew anything about science knows that the big bang theory, says nothing about how the universe started, not a thing. We don't even know if the universe had a begining.
You might say that filling what we don't know with a creator, or a sky fairy, or any other childish term you want to use is nonsense. What you are actually saying is that you are an arrogant, ignorant fool. There isn't a single scientist that would use the terms you use and very few would deny the possibility of a creator.
You need to either educate yourself a little around science and begin to understand the things we don't know and more importantly why we don't know them. I certainly won't be taking any lectures or talking down to by someone who doesn't even have a basic understanding of the universe in which we live.
Osboro
Well-known member
Well one thing I do know is it wasnt created by a bearded bloke on a cloud.
I can accept thatwe don't know everything.
It's a trait of a human to " understand" we're problem solving apes.
Unfortunately some humans haven't progressed to accepting that they don't understand and instead create answers to these puzzles..... Gods
Evolution should sort this out for your decendants but it's too late for you.
What's your position re blue elephants as gods.?
Santa?
Are you into marvel?
Look, believe what you like , its your way of dealing with the big bad world, but dont expect respect.
I can accept thatwe don't know everything.
It's a trait of a human to " understand" we're problem solving apes.
Unfortunately some humans haven't progressed to accepting that they don't understand and instead create answers to these puzzles..... Gods
Evolution should sort this out for your decendants but it's too late for you.
What's your position re blue elephants as gods.?
Santa?
Are you into marvel?
Look, believe what you like , its your way of dealing with the big bad world, but dont expect respect.
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I assure you it was not a complacent remark, apologies that it came across that way. I was merely pointing out that slavery went on, and is still going on, because people will always exploit those unable to protect themselves. "I don't need a religion to worship God as I understand it. In fact, I see religion as a hindrance to true revelation" welcome to Protestantism
You are your own God, mediating your own religion through your own pick n choose revelation. Been tried many times. Best of luck."What about if I reject him permanently, finally, in perpetuity? What do have to say to me then? I suspect it won't be nice" Well the God I worship does not send people to Hell, he simply respects our choice. C. S. Lewis probably said it most eloquently in The Great Divorce:
"There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in hell chose it. Without that self-choice there could be no hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. To those who knock it is opened.”
Well I can respect your choice, even if I don't understand it, so hopefully you can find a way of respecting mine.