Scrap HS2

[Anton_Berg]

All it takes is some kids to be spotted on the embankment and they stop the trains for 20 minutes. HS trains just mean trains are backed up behind for longer distance.
Oh, and it's essential for levelling up the country's regions, apparently.

 

[ThePrisoner]

I concur entirely with your sentiments. I feel equally concerned that people winge about building on "green" land and talk of protecting the countryside [not you], then get in their car and expect a motorway to take them where they want to be and sod everyone else.

We all need a change in macro-mindset: lock down has given us a glimpse of the future - where people became concerned again for others - and massively reduced road traffic gave us back our roads to walk and cycle along.

Investment in mass public rapid - transit is long overdue. We will have to accept a temporary inconvenience for long-term benefit for all of our people.

Most freight should go by rail. Get it off the roads except for the last few miles at either end.

 

[r00fie1]

It is a headline grabber as it is totally unnecessary, and has been from day one - £30bn, to £45bn, to £55bn, to whatever the cost will end up being. Using other projects to downplay how ridiculous this entire proect is simply helps to obfuscate the truth, which is exactly what politicians and those who benefit financially from this scheme want.

This country and us will face decades of increased taxation to pay for the impacts of the Covid crisis. Let's lessen the blow for the 99% somewhat by ceasing this preposterous scheme now before any more precious funds are diverted to the 1%.

Using other projects to downplay how ridiculous this entire proect is simply helps to obfuscate the truth, which is exactly what politicians and those who benefit financially from this scheme want. -
No.
The figures from other Government expenditure of public money [mine and yours] is to place HS2 in context.
If you for stop one moment - you allude to there being a conspiracy by politicians and "those" (?) you allege will benefit (?) - which you claim is driving the project.
You need to elaborate and back up your assertions with facts.
What is this "truth" you speak of?

Do you feel equally aggrieved by those [McAlpine / Balfour-Beatty, et al] who "benefit" by billions from our taxation every year to build and maintain expensive Motorway infrastructure (?)

Those same companies [above] have already benefited from the public purse from HS2.

Lets not forget the thousands of jobs already created by HS2 - a proportion of the cost is returned to the economy in employment and in payment to land-owners, so lets try to keep a reasoned perspective on the project.

I also agree the following needs to be completed at speed:
Rienstatement of:
Oxford - Cambridge.
March - Spalding
Matlock to Chinley
Tweedbank to Carlisle

There are loads more.....of course.

 

[r00fie1]

All it takes is some kids to be spotted on the embankment and they stop the trains for 20 minutes. HS trains just mean trains are backed up behind for longer distance.
Oh, and it's essential for levelling up the country's regions, apparently.

Ever stood still on the Motorway network?
Always the place for "accidents", speeding, breakdowns,etc...... All it takes is for one driver to be careless, unthinking, drunk, asleep, speeding,negliegent...and they stop the motorway for 20++++minutes

 

[r00fie1]

I’m a traditionalist when it comes to the countryside, Christmas traditions, self sufficiency and general family life, so there’s a very good chance I over romanticise things. The irony being my whole career has been made from e-commerce and tech.
I think the countryside and natural world offers me much needed balance, so I get protective when it’s getting destroyed unnecessarily.

I agree.
Where I lived as a lad, the M1 cut straight through "Bluebell Woods" - destroyimng it and desecrating farmland. The noise and smell from the motorway pervades the remaining countryside today.....

 

[r00fie1]

Most freight should go by rail. Get it off the roads except for the last few miles at either end.

Agreed: The process is rolling out across the country - the latest being the huge railhead near rugby.
People too, need to have a cheap fast reliable alternative to the four wheeled variety.

 

[Jostler]

Using other projects to downplay how ridiculous this entire proect is simply helps to obfuscate the truth, which is exactly what politicians and those who benefit financially from this scheme want. -
No.
The figures from other Government expenditure of public money [mine and yours] is to place HS2 in context.
If you for stop one moment - you allude to there being a conspiracy by politicians and "those" (?) you allege will benefit (?) - which you claim is driving the project.
You need to elaborate and back up your assertions with facts.
What is this "truth" you speak of?

Do you feel equally aggrieved by those [McAlpine / Balfour-Beatty, et al] who "benefit" by billions from our taxation every year to build and maintain expensive Motorway infrastructure (?)

Those same companies [above] have already benefited from the public purse from HS2.

Lets not forget the thousands of jobs already created by HS2 - a proportion of the cost is returned to the economy in employment and in payment to land-owners, so lets try to keep a reasoned perspective on the project.

I also agree the following needs to be completed at speed:
Rienstatement of:
Oxford - Cambridge.
March - Spalding
Matlock to Chinley
Tweedbank to Carlisle

There are loads more.....of course.

I actually live in a village on the Ox-Cam (old varsity line), work is fully underway, it is at least in the vast majority reusing is existing track beds etc even if it’s causing a minor inconvenience to local traffic. That I genuinely see as a positive, being able to get to Oxford / MK with ease will help with commuting and take some traffic off the local roads!

however someone was saying in the pub the other day it isn’t going to Cambridge at least in stage one and will stop at Bedford

 

[r00fie1]

I actually live in a village on the Ox-Cam, work is fully underway, it is at least in the vast majority reusing is existing track beds etc even if it’s causing a minor inconvenience to local traffic. That I genuinely see as a positive, being able to get to Oxford / MK with ease will help with commuting and take some traffic off the local roads!

I cycled alongside the unique "busway"
Its a private company rebuilding the railway I understand?
Whens the completion date?
East - west infrastructure is appalling.

 

[Jostler]

I cycled alongside the unique "busway"
Its a private company rebuilding the railway I understand?
Whens the completion date?
East - west infrastructure is appalling.

I think 2024, but that might be wrong. Will have a wander up to the railway bridge tomorrow morning and have a look at the project plan that’s there and get back to you!

 

[Jostler]

I cycled alongside the unique "busway"
Its a private company rebuilding the railway I understand?
Whens the completion date?
East - west infrastructure is appalling.

the big positive for us here is it opens up Oxford / Bicester as job options even if you do not drive as you’re stuck with Aylesbury, MK and Buckingham atm

 

[r00fie1]

I think 2024, but that might be wrong. Will have a wander up to the railway bridge tomorrow morning and have a look at the project plan that’s there and get back to you!

Cheers.
I know some of the track-bed has some private residences in the way and a few bridges need rienstatement.
About time.
Should never have closed like many other lines.

 

[r00fie1]

the big positive for us here is it opens up Oxford / Bicester as job options even if you do not drive as you’re stuck with Aylesbury, MK and Buckingham atm

My only memory of Bicester is the old Ordnance Depot and SSVC school - where I learned about Standard 8, Super 8 and 16mm!

 

[Jostler]

Cheers.
I know some of the track-bed has some private residences in the way and a few bridges need rienstatement.
About time.
Should never have closed like many other lines.

will have a watch of that. On our local Facebook groups a few people have mentioned that it is affecting some of the new builds closest to the line which were built without consideration.

I’m too young to remember a lot of the local railways but my parents were visiting last weekend and me and my dad (73) were having this discussion about the old railways, towns like Guisborough and Stokesley should never have had their stations removed.

 

[Jostler]

My only memory of Bicester is the old Ordnance Depot and SSVC school - where I learned about Standard 8, Super 8 and 16mm!

Bicester is great if you like cheap designer labels, but that’s about it. Though they are building like there’s no tomorrow and a few big Companies have their HQ’s there due to proximity to M40

 

[Subbuteo_171]

Using other projects to downplay how ridiculous this entire proect is simply helps to obfuscate the truth, which is exactly what politicians and those who benefit financially from this scheme want. -
No.
The figures from other Government expenditure of public money [mine and yours] is to place HS2 in context.
If you for stop one moment - you allude to there being a conspiracy by politicians and "those" (?) you allege will benefit (?) - which you claim is driving the project.
You need to elaborate and back up your assertions with facts.
What is this "truth" you speak of?

Do you feel equally aggrieved by those [McAlpine / Balfour-Beatty, et al] who "benefit" by billions from our taxation every year to build and maintain expensive Motorway infrastructure (?)

Those same companies [above] have already benefited from the public purse from HS2.

Lets not forget the thousands of jobs already created by HS2 - a proportion of the cost is returned to the economy in employment and in payment to land-owners, so lets try to keep a reasoned perspective on the project.

I also agree the following needs to be completed at speed:
Rienstatement of:
Oxford - Cambridge.
March - Spalding
Matlock to Chinley
Tweedbank to Carlisle

There are loads more.....of course.

It is not needed at all. In which case you ask the question why this is proceeding, and a logical conclusion is then arrived at.

Roads are a different matter, they are used by the majority. Inter city rail travel is used by the minority, HS2 will be used by how many and from which areas?

If we are to spend this money invest in infrastructure where it is needed, make buses/trams/local rail networks better and cheaper/more reliable so driving isnt the default option due to cost, build proper cycling networks.

Job creation is a distraction, they are in construction, once completed those jobs are gone.

 

[r00fie1]

It is not needed at all. In which case you ask the question why this is proceeding, and a logical conclusion is then arrived at.

Roads are a different matter, they are used by the majority. Inter city rail travel is used by the minority, HS2 will be used by how many and from which areas?

If we are to spend this money invest in infrastructure where it is needed, make buses/trams/local rail networks better and cheaper/more reliable so driving isnt the default option due to cost, build proper cycling networks.

Job creation is a distraction, they are in construction, once completed those jobs are gone.

Im not an apologist for HS2, but jobs are not a "distraction" - it is necessary now more than ever to invest in infrastructure projects to prevent huge long - term unemployment [CBI claims over 4,000,000 million people could be registered as unemployed by next year.

The continued maintenance and operation of any railway involves hundreds, if not thousands of people within the supply chain: from the quarries where ballast is sourced, the transport required to transport it - the drivers and engineers,etc,etc,etc,etc - the workers at hitachi who build and maintain trains, the steel used to replace and maintain the lines,etc,etc,etc.
Isnt that the same argument you could use for road-build? [once its built - those jobs are gone?]. Actually, once built, infrastructure requires continuous maintenance and development...

"Inter city rail travel is used by the minority," (?)
Perhaps we need to look at the figures for journeys recorded by the Office of Road and Rail: https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/usage/passenger-rail-usage/
You will note that the graph to the right denotes the impact of the Covid scenario.

I would suggest that the "majority" have feet - one in four people dont have access to a car in the UK [16,000,000 people]
Comparing statistics requires an element of commonality.

The railways we have left, following the carnage of Beeching, are in the main operating over-capacity and the infrastructure is old and exhausted. Privatisation has lead to fragmentation of the network, huge subsidies to private rail-operators [into private shareholders pockets - not reinvestment into infrastructure] and cherry-picking more lucrative services to maximise profits.

In 5 years [by Quater] the number of journeys has increased from 390,000,000,000 [2014-15 Q1] to 460,000,000,000 [2019-20 Q3] Thats an increase in single journeys of + 70,000,000,000!
You cant compare those figures with a trip to the garage in your Hillman Imp or a drive to Hintons.

I entirely agree with your assertion that local bus/tram/train/cycle infrastructure requires investment, but it cant happen piecemeal.
As someone who doesnt drive, I am acutely aware of the issues using "public" transport and the postcode lottery of its quality, reliability and affordability.

I could spend all night outlining the case for HS2 and go round in circles - because it highlights the glaring disparity between different urban areas and the regions, in terms of access to reliable, affordable, cheap, dependable public transport. We are paying for what we threw away 60+ years ago. Its all our responsibility to do something about getting back to a point where everyone matters, not just "me" as an individual.

Lets hope we kick arzes and get the process moving: lock down has at least revealed the underlying true caring nature of our people - caring about neighbours, friends and families first.
Someone said "there is no such thing as society...".
We know it is the common good which unites us all.
Lets all get back on the "bus"

 

[Archiestephens_elbow]

Check out how much Johnsons brother and dad have made out of hs2

It's outrageous

 

[Subbuteo_171]

Im not an apologist for HS2, but jobs are not a "distraction" - it is necessary now more than ever to invest in infrastructure projects to prevent huge long - term unemployment [CBI claims over 4,000,000 million people could be registered as unemployed by next year.

The continued maintenance and operation of any railway involves hundreds, if not thousands of people within the supply chain: from the quarries where ballast is sourced, the transport required to transport it - the drivers and engineers,etc,etc,etc,etc - the workers at hitachi who build and maintain trains, the steel used to replace and maintain the lines,etc,etc,etc.
Isnt that the same argument you could use for road-build? [once its built - those jobs are gone?]. Actually, once built, infrastructure requires continuous maintenance and development...

"Inter city rail travel is used by the minority," (?)
Perhaps we need to look at the figures for journeys recorded by the Office of Road and Rail: https://dataportal.orr.gov.uk/statistics/usage/passenger-rail-usage/
You will note that the graph to the right denotes the impact of the Covid scenario.
View attachment 6519
I would suggest that the "majority" have feet - one in four people dont have access to a car in the UK [16,000,000 people]
Comparing statistics requires an element of commonality.

The railways we have left, following the carnage of Beeching, are in the main operating over-capacity and the infrastructure is old and exhausted. Privatisation has lead to fragmentation of the network, huge subsidies to private rail-operators [into private shareholders pockets - not reinvestment into infrastructure] and cherry-picking more lucrative services to maximise profits.

In 5 years [by Quater] the number of journeys has increased from 390,000,000,000 [2014-15 Q1] to 460,000,000,000 [2019-20 Q3] Thats an increase in single journeys of + 70,000,000,000!
You cant compare those figures with a trip to the garage in your Hillman Imp or a drive to Hintons.

I entirely agree with your assertion that local bus/tram/train/cycle infrastructure requires investment, but it cant happen piecemeal.
As someone who doesnt drive, I am acutely aware of the issues using "public" transport and the postcode lottery of its quality, reliability and affordability.

I could spend all night outlining the case for HS2 and go round in circles - because it highlights the glaring disparity between different urban areas and the regions, in terms of access to reliable, affordable, cheap, dependable public transport. We are paying for what we threw away 60+ years ago. Its all our responsibility to do something about getting back to a point where everyone matters, not just "me" as an individual.

Lets hope we kick arzes and get the process moving: lock down has at least revealed the underlying true caring nature of our people - caring about neighbours, friends and families first.
Someone said "there is no such thing as society...".
We know it is the common good which unites us all.
Lets all get back on the "bus"

I agree railway infrastructure and public transport has suffered from severe under investment for decades and we need to address it. My main point is HS2 does not provide a benefit to 99% of the population so why invest in this project when there is no requirement for it, there are other needs we could address and the UK is facing unprecedented circumstances.

Accept I was pretty glib about the jobs, what I was trying say was once the project is completed those roles effectively disappear as they are time limited. Think we are broadly agreeing apart from semantics.

 

[Juninho10]

I've always said.... if it's really that 'Vital' - Build it North going South

Always the Southern sections get built and the North gets 'delayed' or doesn't happen at all