Solar pannels

[The_Big_Woodowski]

Just after a bit of advice.

I am looking at getting some, but has become a complete minefield. Everybody I speak to is telling me something different. From the number of panel's, positioning of them, different battery requirements, different inventors, varying levels of future maintenance.

Does anybody have them and can offer any advice/pitfalls associated with them?

What did you pay if don’t mind me asking and would you recommend a company/installer or manufacture of the equipment.

Any help appreciated

 

[Cress]

This chap's good/ knowledgeable:-

Wind & Sun

Wind & Sun

www.windandsun.co.uk

 

[Nano]

Numbers don't seem to stack up in my opinion. 10-15 years to make your money back but that ignores the opportunity cost. Invest that money in low cost index trackers and it is 25 years before they are better value, if they don't need replacing in that time.

Until the upfront cost drops dramatically or the price paid to sell your excess back to the national grid then I'd avoid it.

 

[Markburke]

Numbers don't seem to stack up in my opinion. 10-15 years to make your money back but that ignores the opportunity cost. Invest that money in low cost index trackers and it is 25 years before they are better value, if they don't need replacing in that time.

Until the upfront cost drops dramatically or the price paid to sell your excess back to the national grid then I'd avoid it.

Nano I’m trying to work through it all too. Really interested in the maths - is your assessment based on export to the grid or use of energy against your own bills at 2022/23 prices?

 

[Nano]

Nano I’m trying to work through it all too. Really interested in the maths - is your assessment based on export to the grid or use of energy against your own bills at 2022/23 prices?

To be honest, I've only done basic fag packet maths using the numbers on the sales websites (which I assume to be optimistic) and then just doubled the "savings" to account for the latest tariffs. Then just compared against a 7% return on an index tracker less "savings".

I'm hoping that at some point in the future the government look at either eliminating the upfront cost through grants or charging the same rate to sell the excess as you pay so it becomes feasible.

 

[Redwurzel]

They were not economic for your average householder a few years ago (took around 20 years to get money back), but with the increases in electricity prices in April and October 2022 I would have thought the economics have changed.

 

[Cress]

Don’t know these but they’re in the north east:-

Solar Photovoltaic Systems | Eco Energ Solutions Renewables Ltd

Solar Photovoltaic Systems generate power and heat from sun’s energy to create electricity. Feed-in-tariff gives you 3-way financial benefits.

eco-energ.co.uk

 

[sadgit]

My mate bought some years ago, and then sold his house after 3 years of getting them installed. They added zero value to the house, so he waved away several thousand pounds...

 

[Priv]

The direction your roof faces is a major part of how feasible it is, my parents live on a corner thats quite open and it’s a large ish semi. They have 3 sloped sides which has allowed them to have panels on the south and west facing part of the roof. To be fair they do very well out of theirs, though my old feller said if he could of only put them on one side they wouldn’t of been worth it.

 

[Cress]

Use 'em to charge yr leccy car

 

[Cambsred]

The feed in tariff is awful. Is there a reason it isn't incentivised more? I feel like it should be linked to wholesale prices along the line.

I've got panels that I inherited when I bought a house a month or two back, alongside a battery for storage. The system cost about £11k. Still trying to setup the feed in as the documents were missing for it.

I've not yet sorted how beneficial they are but when the sun is shining they appear to save me about £3 a day on my electricity bill.

 

[BoroMart]

Numbers don't seem to stack up in my opinion. 10-15 years to make your money back but that ignores the opportunity cost. Invest that money in low cost index trackers and it is 25 years before they are better value, if they don't need replacing in that time.

Until the upfront cost drops dramatically or the price paid to sell your excess back to the national grid then I'd avoid it.

unless you are being stung then no way will it be 10-15 years, more like 6-10 years break even with current electricity prices.

Got them fitted about a month ago. Still waiting for batteries as there is a shortage of stocks in the UK, but even without batteries my daily electricity has dropped by more than half. With batteries at this time of year I don't think I'll pay more than the standing charge.

 

[newusername]

Until ... the price paid to sell your excess back to the national grid then I'd avoid it.

I don't think that is going to change as they want people to consume everything they generate onsite.
If every building had panels on their roof there'd be a surge of generation in the middle of the day and there wouldn't be the demand to use it.

A number of years ago I was part of an EDF project that installed different types of domestic generation, storage & various ways people could monitor usage such as smart meters, smart plugs.

EDF were keen on installing electric vehicle chargers but the study showed they didn't work as people had the cars away from the house during the day. Best was hot water tanks & immersion heaters, closely followed by being able to turn on appliances (tumble dryer etc) remotely during peak. People with battery storage didn't like it (size, capacity) but there has certainly been improvements in that technology in the subsequent period.

 

[Nano]

unless you are being stung then no way will it be 10-15 years, more like 6-10 years break even with current electricity prices.

Got them fitted about a month ago. Still waiting for batteries as there is a shortage of stocks in the UK, but even without batteries my daily electricity has dropped by more than half. With batteries at this time of year I don't think I'll pay more than the standing charge.

Daily electricity has dropped by half in the record breaking month of sunshine? I expect it will be much less in the winter.

I'm just using the numbers on the sales websites. I assume they are optimistic target than pessimistic given the source.

Money Saving Expert actually have a guide and I presume theirs is pretty robust. At current prices they are saying 18 years.

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/utilities/free-solar-panels/

This excludes opportunity cost of investing that £6.5k upfront as well.

Just seems like a terrible investment. It's a good idea in principle but financially it doesn't seem like a good idea. I suppose if you're loaded and you've already exhausted your ISA and you want some diversification then it might be ok but if you're in that position you probably don't care about saving money in 15 years.

 

[ThatFragranceGuy]

Energy saving trust has a calculator that will show you expected payback time. Our back garden faces south yet every time I fill this in it seems like it will take forever unless you expect energy prices to continue to raise over the entire period

This also assumes I work from home and can reorganise our use to take advantage of generator time eg washing dishwasher etc , otherwise you need an battery and that's is more ££££'a. Feed in tariff useless, EV makes it more feasible

 

[Nano]

Energy saving trust has a calculator that will show you expected payback time. Our back garden faces south yet every time I fill this in it seems like it will take forever unless you expect energy prices to continue to raise over the entire period

This also assumes I work from home and can reorganise our use to take advantage of generator time eg washing dishwasher etc , otherwise you need an battery and that's is more ££££'a. Feed in tariff useless, EV makes it more feasible

It looks to me like EV only makes it feasible if you are a taxi driver and you use all your battery at night and charge it during the day. If you are out during the day and home at night like most people then you can't use the excess to charge your car. Most people will generate the majority of the energy when they don't need it. This will be solved by batteries but again I think we are several years away from them being a reasonable price.

We are at a spike in energy prices as well. I expect that they will go down in the long term, not up. The war in the Ukraine is causing a lot of the issues (and the government refusing to help). Once the war ends and a different government comes in then there might be something done about reducing prices for energy and increasing subsidies for green initiatives. The current government are more interested in the share prices than the bill payers.

I've done some quick calculations based on the MSE linked above:

£6,500 upfront cost, £276 savings per year, £95 feed in takes 19 years to get back to £0. £6,500 invested at 7% per year -(£276+£95) after 19 years will have you at £9,356. 5% would be £5,206. 5.077% is the point where you'd earn exactly the amount to cover your savings each year. Anything under that then solar panels would overtake it at some point (assuming no extra cost). That obviously changes if your savings is higher. 7% is the value that is usually used though as long term return. At 7% then savings increasing to £360 is where 7% return doesn't lose you money.It would be 30 years before your panels get you to +£6,500.

Below is the MSE table with the opportunity cost of investing in the stock market with a low cost index tracker. Return is at the point of break even for the solar panels:

Upfront	Savings	Feed-In	Years to £0	Stocks @ 3%	Stocks @ 5%	Stocks @ 7%
£ 6,500	£ 166	£ 95	26	£ 4,094	£ 9,555	£ 18,770
£ 6,500	£ 207	£ 95	23	£ 3,233	£ 7,386	£ 13,998
£ 6,500	£ 276	£ 95	19	£ 2,379	£ 5,206	£ 9,356
£ 6,500	£ 345	£ 95	16	£ 1,943	£ 4,018	£ 6,877
£ 6,500	£ 414	£ 95	14	£ 1,596	£ 3,241	£ 5,412

I've also read that solar panels should be serviced. Annual servicing is about £100 so that's another addition to payback years if you opt for that cost. No idea if that is a condition of warranty like it is with boilers.

 

[SmallTown]

Use 'em to charge yr leccy car

Of course. That's the dream isn't it? Thousands of miles of free motoring. Hilarious to me that everyone will argue over when you get your money back on solar panels. In the way they do over nothing else but green tech. If you can afford to get the panels put in, you'll be saving money from day one. And insulating yourself from crazy energy prices oh and, yes, helping the environment

 

[Nano]

Of course. That's the dream isn't it? Thousands of miles of free motoring. Hilarious to me that everyone will argue over when you get your money back on solar panels. In the way they do over nothing else but green tech. If you can afford to get the panels put in, you'll be saving money from day one. And insulating yourself from crazy energy prices oh and, yes, helping the environment

I can't believe anyone wouldn't do the maths. Spending 2 years worth of energy prices to get 2 weeks of energy free a year isn't feasible for most people. Being green has to be cost-effective.

 

[The Ruthsayer]

It looks to me like EV only makes it feasible if you are a taxi driver and you use all your battery at night and charge it during the day. If you are out during the day and home at night like most people then you can't use the excess to charge your car. Most people will generate the majority of the energy when they don't need it. This will be solved by batteries but again I think we are several years away from them being a reasonable price.

We are at a spike in energy prices as well. I expect that they will go down in the long term, not up. The war in the Ukraine is causing a lot of the issues (and the government refusing to help). Once the war ends and a different government comes in then there might be something done about reducing prices for energy and increasing subsidies for green initiatives. The current government are more interested in the share prices than the bill payers.

I've done some quick calculations based on the MSE linked above:

£6,500 upfront cost, £276 savings per year, £95 feed in takes 19 years to get back to £0. £6,500 invested at 7% per year -(£276+£95) after 19 years will have you at £9,356. 5% would be £5,206. 5.077% is the point where you'd earn exactly the amount to cover your savings each year. Anything under that then solar panels would overtake it at some point (assuming no extra cost). That obviously changes if your savings is higher. 7% is the value that is usually used though as long term return. At 7% then savings increasing to £360 is where 7% return doesn't lose you money.It would be 30 years before your panels get you to +£6,500.

Below is the MSE table with the opportunity cost of investing in the stock market with a low cost index tracker. Return is at the point of break even for the solar panels:

Upfront	Savings	Feed-In	Years to £0	Stocks @ 3%	Stocks @ 5%	Stocks @ 7%
£ 6,500	£ 166	£ 95	26	£ 4,094	£ 9,555	£ 18,770
£ 6,500	£ 207	£ 95	23	£ 3,233	£ 7,386	£ 13,998
£ 6,500	£ 276	£ 95	19	£ 2,379	£ 5,206	£ 9,356
£ 6,500	£ 345	£ 95	16	£ 1,943	£ 4,018	£ 6,877
£ 6,500	£ 414	£ 95	14	£ 1,596	£ 3,241	£ 5,412

I've also read that solar panels should be serviced. Annual servicing is about £100 so that's another addition to payback years if you opt for that cost. No idea if that is a condition of warranty like it is with boilers.

I have a 4kw system. Half face due south and half due west. I inherited them when I bought the house. They were fitted in 2014, so I have no idea if efficiency has improved since then. This is the production from last year, which is pretty typical. I live in North Yorks, so you might see an improvement if you are based further south.

 

[BaronSmoggie]

I've been looking at this, doing the maths, but not looking to do it for financial reasons, but rather environmental. We are living on the South coast so I have a south facing garden and room for the panels. I've being looking at a pair of Tesla Powerwall's for the house for storage and moving to a time of use tariff such as Octopus Go. I see it as an investment I need to make before I can buy an EV as charging off a 3 pin plug is not feasible.

As I said its not a financial return I am interested in, but rather the environmental and showing my daughter there are better ways to do things. I accept I'll never make the money back, but its worth it to me, even if I'm not awash with cash and I'll have to forgo other things for a few years to save money for other projects.