The future for personal transport

SmallTown said:
The last answer is no.

I'll repeat for the third time because you don't seem to understand. Green hydrogen takes electricity to extract the hydrogen. That electricity can currently go straight into a battery. No matter how good we get at creating hydrogen there are always going to be some losses at that stage.
Hydrogen then needs to be converted BACK into electricity. Again there will always be some losses in this system that aren't there when the electricity gets sent straight to the motor.

That's simple physics.

I think the key point you're missing is that hydrogen is a store of energy, not energy itself. Whereas electricity IS energy. Its always going to be less efficient to convert energy for storage and convert it back. Always. It can't not. Not with how we currently physics to work.

Oh and the batteries don't get disposed of.
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Not to mention that hydrogen is dangerous. It leaks so easily I would not want in my house or car. Cars would be bombs waiting to happen.
 
ThePrisoner said:
Not to mention that hydrogen is dangerous. It leaks so easily I would not want in my house or car. Cars would be bombs waiting to happen.
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That’s one of the things that confuses me. People seem to want it because they think it won’t change the way they refuel their vehicles. I’ve filled up many a diesel tank and never once had to pressurise the nozzle or be concerned about a fireball
 
SmallTown said:
Hydrogen then needs to be converted BACK into electricity. Again there will always be some losses in this system that aren't there when the electricity gets sent straight to the motor.
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Not in an internal combustion engine it doesn't, and that was what I was asking about.
 
I’m not sure what your argument is now?

I can see no matter how hard I try you’re just going to ignore the losses incurred in converting electricity to hydrogen so we’ll just take that part of the argument as lost by you and move on.
But then you want to BURN Hydrogen, rather than use a fuel cell? Do you know how inefficient burning stuff is? Not to mention ancient technology that has already been surpassed
 
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That is my best guess at the future of combustion engines. But I'm not an expert(in anything) or particularly knowledgeable on these matter(or any).
 
thewanderer said:
Correct. Next gen solid state batteries will see the end of this nonsense and ICE vehicles.

And you won't be getting any hydrogen pumped to your house either, before any suggests an alternate use for hydrogen.
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I thought Redcar & Cleveland had created a hydrogen village at Kirkleatham.
 
SmallTown said:
I’m not sure what your argument is now?

I can see no matter how hard I try you’re just going to ignore the losses incurred in converting electricity to hydrogen so we’ll just take that part of the argument as lost by you and move on.
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1. You are a very patronising person aren't you?
2. I didn't even realise I was in an argument so perhaps that's just your take on it.
3. It is you ignoring my enquiries about the future of hydrogen internal combustion engines.
4. Have you taken into account how sustainable electric cars are? How the electricity is produced? The materials that make up a battery, where they are mined and their impact on the environment.

My point on this thread was that it is very early days and there are lots of twists and turns ahead including the possibility of hydrogen becoming the preferred fuel for personal transport.
 
SmallTown said:
Surely there is no future for combustion engines?
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I don't really know as I said in my post I don't have much knowledge on this subject. I would think there will always be some kind of market and need for combustion engines and surely the aim needs to be a sustainable and as close to net zero carbon on the fuel production and burning. I don't know what the answer is, and I imagine there is a lot of scientists and people much more intelligent than I am trying to figure out what the answer is.
 
Druss_The_Legend said:
I don't really know as I said in my post I don't have much knowledge on this subject. I would think there will always be some kind of market and need for combustion engines and surely the aim needs to be a sustainable and as close to net zero carbon on the fuel production and burning. I don't know what the answer is, and I imagine there is a lot of scientists and people much more intelligent than I am trying to figure out what the answer is.
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I was talking about pwrodnal transport. I hope we still have ICE for sports and pleasure. But it's ending for personal transport. That bit is happening. No matter how much people maon and wail about it
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
1. You are a very patronising person aren't you?
2. I didn't even realise I was in an argument so perhaps that's just your take on it.
3. It is you ignoring my enquiries about the future of hydrogen internal combustion engines.
4. Have you taken into account how sustainable electric cars are? How the electricity is produced? The materials that make up a battery, where they are mined and their impact on the environment.

My point on this thread was that it is very early days and there are lots of twists and turns ahead including the possibility of hydrogen becoming the preferred fuel for personal transport.
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1. Yes, that you
2. Discussion then
3. No I'm not. I'm just countering it with facts
4. Yes. I mean if you taken in anything I've said at all you would know it's pointless to ask "how is the electricity produced" and do you know ow most of the materials you think are a problem now are sued in refining oil anyway?

And I'm just explaining to you why it's highly unlikely hydrogen will be used for personal transport. Given how absolutely terrible it is compared to EV in every which way at the moment and, not to belabour the point, can't be as efficient as an EV, not with how we currently understand physics to work.
 
SmallTown said:
1. Yes, that you
2. Discussion then
3. No I'm not. I'm just countering it with facts
4. Yes. I mean if you taken in anything I've said at all you would know it's pointless to ask "how is the electricity produced" and do you know ow most of the materials you think are a problem now are sued in refining oil anyway?

And I'm just explaining to you why it's highly unlikely hydrogen will be used for personal transport. Given how absolutely terrible it is compared to EV in every which way at the moment and, not to belabour the point, can't be as efficient as an EV, not with how we currently understand physics to work.
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Sorry, you've lost me.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
Sorry, you've lost me.
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I was just answering your questions. I just can’t see how hydrogen can be considered for personal transport given it’s way less efficient than BEV, it’s fuel harder to store, harder to transport, more volatile.

Given we have already proven EV are viable for personal transport I can’t understand why people would try and argue for an inferior fuel source. I hope something better comes along but until now it’s clear EV are the immediate future
 
Liamo said:
However, according to the article below from January 2022, there did seem to be a target of 20%.


UK's gas grid ready for 20% hydrogen blend from 2023
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I was told about the hydrogen plan by a gas fitter last year who was doing some work next to my house replacing some old gas pipe networks. He said the company he worked for had contracts in place for the next 20 years replacing and upgrading the gas line network to handle more hydrogen.
 
ThePrisoner said:
Not to mention that hydrogen is dangerous. It leaks so easily I would not want in my house or car. Cars would be bombs waiting to happen.
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While hydrogen is highly flammable, so is petrol. Diesel is also flammable. There's no evidence that hydrogen vehicles are more dangerous than other kinds.

As explained in the article below from a car leasing website, leasingoptions.co.uk:

because of the way it is stored for use in a vehicle the likelihood of an accident is at least as low as with any other fuel. This is because hydrogen is kept in a pressurised tank and so the gas does not have a sufficient supply of oxygen to catch fire at its source.
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As this piece also points out:

it is lighter than air, which means that if it were to escape from its tank at any stage then it would very quickly dissipate into the environment. This is in contrast to fossil fuels or the chemicals used in batteries which are liquids at normal pressure and could gather and pose the possibility of a fire.
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How safe are hydrogen cars
 
Trains...in germany now you can get a 49 euro a month card that gives you unlimited travel

Just imagien that, diffeent world
 
Randy said:
I was told about the hydrogen plan by a gas fitter last year who was doing some work next to my house replacing some old gas pipe networks. He said the company he worked for had contracts in place for the next 20 years replacing and upgrading the gas line network to handle more hydrogen.
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Madness. A desperate attempt by the gas networks to remain viable.
 
Gunslinger said:
Trains...in germany now you can get a 49 euro a month card that gives you unlimited travel

Just imagien that, diffeent world
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The argument about ice v eV is silly in the extreme. They are both terrible for the environment. It's the equivelant of who beats their wife the least.

The only sustainable future for the planet is cheap, reliable and regular public transport. Supported by some car scheme that gets you a car for the times you actually need one.
 
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