This Lindsay Hoyle business

Politics was explained to me years ago by someone in my extended family, who I suspect knew where a lot of political bodies were buried. Had a great phrase he used.

“De Omnibus Dubitandum”

Everything should be doubted. Usually shortened to. Doubt Everything!!
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
So have I got this right?
Centrist isn't an insult.
Lessofthelip doesn't regard it as an insult.
Scrote didn't use it as an insult.
Less of the lip is proud to be a centrist.
Scrote isn't a hypocrite after all.
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I think scrote does see it as an insult as centrists think they can "walk two paths" at the same time, and politics "doesn't work like that". That's a view that centrism is irrational in some way, that would be an insult, or at the very least a snear at it.

As I said, political views aren't as binary as that. It's a rainbow of values and views, it's not even a straight linear spectrum more of a grid of colours and views. Some people occupy the fringes of that grid with ideolisms and lack of pragmatism, centrists stay away from the edges.
 
BoroMart said:
I think scrote does see it as an insult as centrists think they can "walk two paths" at the same time, and politics "doesn't work like that". That's a view that centrism is irrational in some way, that would be an insult, or at the very least a snear at it.

As I said, political views aren't as binary as that. It's a rainbow of values and views, it's not even a straight linear spectrum more of a grid of colours and views. Some people occupy the fringes of that grid with ideolisms and lack of pragmatism, centrists stay away from the edges.
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Politics and ideology is always a percentage played. Nobody follows *lFar left wing or Far Right wing* ideology to its full extent in this country. Its like vegans /vegetarians or religious people, they embrace the concept as best they can. But don't have the confidence to live it full on.

*The most corruptible historically
 
mercury_redstone7 said:
I don't think - feel that Scrote is a hypocrite in any shape or form. I'm a centrist, but I would imagine Scrote and yourself have centrist views in a good part of your way of life outlook and day to day living.
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Centrism is a flawed concept for the political theorists.
People believe in certain things for whatever reason.


To try and lump them all together with some kind of algorithm to come up with description is just daft - how on earth do you average your beliefs?
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
So have I got this right?
Centrist isn't an insult.
Lessofthelip doesn't regard it as an insult.
Scrote didn't use it as an insult.
Less of the lip is proud to be a centrist.
Scrote isn't a hypocrite after all.
Click to expand...
That's some leap BBG. The accusation of hypocrisy was to do with belittling someone on a public message board, not whether the giver or the recipient of the message considered it to be insulting.

So after 24 hours of thread inactivity Scrote took exception to HolgateCorner's description of SuperStu's opinions on a particular matter as "conspiracy theories" (I'm sure HC was being light-hearted btw), calling HC's comments "belittling nonsense".

Scrote later admitted that his comments "The tribalism that centrist-central are displaying with regards Starmer and Labour........" was indeed meant to be patronising.

So "belittling", "condescending", "patronising" are all the kind of speech which is a passive-aggressive approach to giving someone a verbal put-down while maintaining a facade of reasonableness or friendliness.

On certain issues I can be a hypocrite and I'll freely admit to it. The worst type of hypocrites are the ones who won't/can't.
 
BoroMart said:
Some people occupy the fringes of that grid with ideolisms and lack of pragmatism, centrists stay away from the edges.
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But is this not to assume that those not in the centre must be at the extremes? People on the left cannot be said to lack pragmatism just because they are left of centre.

mercury_redstone7 said:
Politics and ideology is always a percentage played. Nobody follows *lFar left wing or Far Right wing* ideology to its full extent in this country.
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Exactly. On this board extremists are scarce if they exist at all, but people still casually drop in labels like hard left, extreme left or in the case of one or two posters, loony left when a simple 'left' would be more accurate.
 
1finny said:
Centrism is a flawed concept for the political theorists.
People believe in certain things for whatever reason.


To try and lump them all together with some kind of algorithm to come up with description is just daft - how on earth do you average your beliefs?
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"To try and lump them all together with some kind of algorithm to come up with description is just daft - how on earth do you average your beliefs?"
"Centrism is a flawed concept for the political theorists." Really ?

Its called common sense to me really, and what I make of what's going on around me, some things they do with taxes I pay, I like, others I think are very wrong. I wouldn't profess to anyone my beliefs are the correct for everyone, some I can change indirectly others I can`t.

Speaking of " Political Theorists" when some of the theories they sold a stack books on have been put into action politically, where has it finally led to and what have been the outcomes , right or left ?. I know I`m not steeped in the knowledge, but have read a little on Utopian Socialism and Scientific Socialism (reason) and how modern socialism is formed.
Its rare I've never heard anybody say or believe that they disagree with the trappings and gains they have worked for from capitalism, I have heard plenty of people say they want to make a better and fairer society.
Beliefs in what?, you may support particular views but do you carry those beliefs to its fullest extent? I think you may try but you don't fully. Nothing stopping you believing you do though. I know you are a Vegan/Vegetarian but you average your belief Finny, we all do to some extent.
 
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LessoftheLip said:
That's some leap BBG. The accusation of hypocrisy was to do with belittling someone on a public message board, not whether the giver or the recipient of the message considered it to be insulting.

So after 24 hours of thread inactivity Scrote took exception to HolgateCorner's description of SuperStu's opinions on a particular matter as "conspiracy theories" (I'm sure HC was being light-hearted btw), calling HC's comments "belittling nonsense".

Scrote later admitted that his comments "The tribalism that centrist-central are displaying with regards Starmer and Labour........" was indeed meant to be patronising.

So "belittling", "condescending", "patronising" are all the kind of speech which is a passive-aggressive approach to giving someone a verbal put-down while maintaining a facade of reasonableness or friendliness.

On certain issues I can be a hypocrite and I'll freely admit to it. The worst type of hypocrites are the ones who won't/can't.
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I was just being light hearted amongst all the toing and froing.
 
BlindBoyGrunt said:
but people still casually drop in labels like hard left, extreme left or in the case of one or two posters, loony left when a simple 'left' would be more accurate.
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Or dropping in labels like Tory-light, Starmerites, centrist-central etc. when a simple "centre-left" would be more appropriate.
 
1finny said:
Centrism is a flawed concept for the political theorists.
People believe in certain things for whatever reason.


To try and lump them all together with some kind of algorithm to come up with description is just daft - how on earth do you average your beliefs?
Click to expand...
Personally I consider centrism a rejection of ideology, in the same way that atheism is a rejection of religious ideology.

I don't believe in the idea of unfettered capitalism, and absolute libertarianism on the right, and I don't believe in the economics of absolute communism and social control on the left. I don't beleive we should strive or stray to those extremes, but instead seek balance. We can have a capitalist society, with controls to stop exploitation and wealth/power hoarding. I mean why does any ever desire to become a billionaire, that level of wealth and power shouldn't really b attainable for anyone? What actual benefit do you get on a day to day basis being a billionaire compared to say having just 50m in cash and assets? If I inherited a billion tomorrow, I'd give all but 50m away, and I'd invest most of that, to earn more money to give away.
 
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BlindBoyGrunt said:
But is this not to assume that those not in the centre must be at the extremes? People on the left cannot be said to lack pragmatism just because they are left of centre.


Exactly. On this board extremists are scarce if they exist at all, but people still casually drop in labels like hard left, extreme left or in the case of one or two posters, loony left when a simple 'left' would be more accurate.
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But any form of agreed fair or enforced taxation is a form of socialism, even to the most ardent right wing political person. I say I'm a centrist because I don't want blanket nationalisation and I want the freedom to express myself and do whatever legal means allow (normally I call them dreams and no political party owns those things)

I want to see society benefiting by having a Govt tax payer managed all inclusive NHS, Utilities, Commuting Working Public Transport system, etc that works for us all.
 
BoroMart said:
Centrists are pragmatic and the opposite of extremist. It could never be an insult to me.
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Have to say I disagree here mind.

Through my adult life there's never been a time where the people who think of themselves as 'centrists' have been particularly pragmatic about politics. Consider the way Cameron sold his policies (there is no alternative), the hardline position centrists took after the EU ref wanting the result to just be overturned or rerun, the sabotage during Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party...

Heck even recently on here I've seen centrists lamenting Ed Miliband winning the leadership over David. 14 years ago and people still haven't come to terms with that. Hardly pragmatic, even though Ed was incredibly accommodating to the right of the party.

You may point to the Lib Dems abandoning all their policies after 2010 and Starmer going back on all his pledges since 2020 BUT I don't think this can truly be called pragmatism as its always in the same direction. None of these policies become more left wing over time or in response to events. Its less to do with pragmatism and more a gravitational effect.

I'm not even necessarily blaming the individuals involved that this happens. Its pretty natural I suppose. We all see our media as pulling to the right, so if you start off with a political leader that's somewhere in the centre, why are they going to put any time/effort/reputation into holding firm with a leftwing policy? But it's not pragmatism to abandon these policies. It's not an unemotional search for what policy would have the actual best outcome. It's just following the path of least resistance.
 
LessoftheLip said:
Scrote later admitted that his comments "The tribalism that centrist-central are displaying with regards Starmer and Labour........" was indeed meant to be patronising.
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No he very didn't.

He made a patronising statement about grown-men crying about being labelled the very thing they happily label themselves. And then clarified that that statement was meant to be patronising.

LessoftheLip said:
Or dropping in labels like Tory-light, Starmerites, centrist-central etc. when a simple "centre-left" would be more appropriate.
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The problem is the complete lack of any political definition of these terms on this board. I consider myself to be left-wing and I look at what you and BoroMart and others post and from where I'm sat it looks very centre-right at the very best.

Added to that, the ever-shifting political window means you need to determine your centre-point temporally. A centre-left ideology in 1964 is very different to a centre-left ideology in 2024. It's where more specific labels e.g. Marxist, Capitalist etc. help, but even those labels end up being butchered over time and get used in contextually ridiculous ways.

The only real way to determine where someone stands politically is to find out what their limits are, both left and right. Most regular people that you'd meet in and around Teesside will have a mix of views. I'd hazard a guess that any averaging out would see the majority much further left than central, with perhaps Immigration, and Brexit (as implemented) being the major right-wing sticking points, and Law & Order being somewhere in the middle.

BoroMart said:
Personally I consider centrism a rejection of ideology, in the same way that atheism is a rejection of religious ideology.
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This makes no sense.
Do you want a state-funded NHS? That's an ideology.
Do you want regulation of financial institutions? That's an ideology.
Do you want immigrants repatriating? That's an ideology.

When you combine all the little choices you end up at a political position (and I agree that a left-right line isn't a good representation of that).

BoroMart said:
I don't believe in the idea of unfettered capitalism, and absolute libertarianism on the right, and I don't believe in the economics of absolute communism and social control on the left.
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Neither do I, so does that make me a centrist?


BoroMart said:
I think scrote does see it as an insult as centrists think they can "walk two paths" at the same time, and politics "doesn't work like that". That's a view that centrism is irrational in some way, that would be an insult, or at the very least a snear at it.
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I don't see it as an insult. I just don't see it in the same way you do. Firstly, the vast majority of self-declared centrists that I know end up having fairly traditional Liberal politics. A bit of social empathy and a bit of free-market self-help. They generally, in my view, fail to see the priviliges that have allowed them to hold those views with impunity (until the Tories wreck everything and suddenly we need them replacing).
 
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mercury_redstone7 said:
But any form of agreed fair or enforced taxation is a form of socialism, even to the most ardent right wing political person. I say I'm a centrist because I don't want blanket nationalisation and I want the freedom to express myself and do whatever legal means allow (normally I call them dreams and no political party owns those things)
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Surely the whole point of the political process is to set the legal framework to allow or disallow things based on ideological ideas?

If you're being prevented from fulfilling your dreams by the legal framework then you can vote for politicians that promise to revoke those laws.

Do you want to run through town with a shotgun? Vote for the We All Love Guns Party.

You want to own a hippopotamus? Join the Animals For All Party.

mercury_redstone7 said:
I want to see society benefiting by having a Govt tax payer managed all inclusive NHS, Utilities, Commuting Working Public Transport system, etc that works for us all.
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That's socialism, not centrism.
 
Scrote said:
Surely the whole point of the political process is to set the legal framework to allow or disallow things based on ideological ideas?

If you're being prevented from fulfilling your dreams by the legal framework then you can vote for politicians that promise to revoke those laws.

Do you want to run through town with a shotgun? Vote for the We All Love Guns Party.

You want to own a hippopotamus? Join the Animals For All Party.


That's socialism, not centrism.
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Now that is nonsense you have spouted :). I think we have what I listed to a degree already, just the Tories like to cut back on everything good for society I've paid tax on that help build.

Centrism has socialist aspects too or haven't you noticed.
 
SuperStu said:
Have to say I disagree here mind.

Through my adult life there's never been a time where the people who think of themselves as 'centrists' have been particularly pragmatic about politics. Consider the way Cameron sold his policies (there is no alternative), the hardline position centrists took after the EU ref wanting the result to just be overturned or rerun, the sabotage during Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party...

Heck even recently on here I've seen centrists lamenting Ed Miliband winning the leadership over David. 14 years ago and people still haven't come to terms with that. Hardly pragmatic, even though Ed was incredibly accommodating to the right of the party.

You may point to the Lib Dems abandoning all their policies after 2010 and Starmer going back on all his pledges since 2020 BUT I don't think this can truly be called pragmatism as its always in the same direction. None of these policies become more left wing over time or in response to events. Its less to do with pragmatism and more a gravitational effect.

I'm not even necessarily blaming the individuals involved that this happens. Its pretty natural I suppose. We all see our media as pulling to the right, so if you start off with a political leader that's somewhere in the centre, why are they going to put any time/effort/reputation into holding firm with a leftwing policy? But it's not pragmatism to abandon these policies. It's not an unemotional search for what policy would have the actual best outcome. It's just following the path of least resistance.
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Cameron, when push came to shove was a right winger in centrist clothing. Never really a centrist

Milliband vs Milliband, that’s a personality politic point. I’d have taken either above Cameron as their policies were both more centrist than the right wing libertarian driven ideology of austerity
 
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